See how the "new SETI Community" roam even other Projects' Messageboards to rate Postings negative and Flame away ?
No wonder many of the oldschool Members turned their back and walked away from the one Project they helped grow up in the first place. Now the 'new kids on the block' are free to play there, with the obvious Results one can observe even over here.
Anyway, welcome Warhawk, nice to see you around here :)
Just for the record, I personally am not one for flaming. However, I am one all for defense of something I work for or believe in. SETI qualifies for both categories. I would do the same for Einstein, Rosetta, LHC or any number of projects I crunch because I only crunch those I think will be of benefit. So, insults to me can come as much as a person wants because they mean nothing to me. But when a person degrades something in those categories, I am on the front lines defending. Just remember, it all started somewhere. It's one of those chicken vs. egg arguments. Was it the person who said "This sucks" that started everything or the person that said "You're stupid"? I don't know, and I don't care. I only wish it would stop. But I still think it's pretty sad when people hide behind the walls of other forums to talk bad about a project they never REALLY gave a chance to. Am I singling out Warhawk? No. Someone that dedicated (15+ machines) should have several (15+) valid complaints, especially in the department of downtime (work = worth it). Many people have valid complaints and to them I say Kudos. Let's figure out what they are so IF they can be addressed, let's address them and get things moving. It's those people who say "This sucks because my screensaver isn't the same" that get to me. Is it a valid complaint? No. Was the complaint addressed? Several times. Are they accepting the solutions? No. So, like I said before, I'm not against anyone with a valid problem. Warhawk (in my opinion) has/had one. Other people on this post has/had one (or more). But to those that don't, don't degrade another project just because they didn't bend to your demands. And especially don't do it behind the protection of another forum. You forget that now this is BOINC. I crunch Einstein as much as SETI (or Rosetta, LHC, CP etc). I'm here as much as SETI. I'm here because this project is one I believe in, not to patrol boards and flame users. And honestly, anyone who does that is truly wasting resources that could be put to a better cause.
Just for the record, I personally am not one for flaming. However, I am one all for defense of something I work for or believe in. SETI qualifies for both categories. I would do the same for Einstein, Rosetta, LHC or any number of projects I crunch because I only crunch those I think will be of benefit. So, insults to me can come as much as a person wants because they mean nothing to me. But when a person degrades something in those categories, I am on the front lines defending. Just remember, it all started somewhere. It's one of those chicken vs. egg arguments. Was it the person who said "This sucks" that started everything or the person that said "You're stupid"? I don't know, and I don't care. I only wish it would stop. But I still think it's pretty sad when people hide behind the walls of other forums to talk bad about a project they never REALLY gave a chance to. Am I singling out Warhawk? No. Someone that dedicated (15+ machines) should have several (15+) valid complaints, especially in the department of downtime (work = worth it). Many people have valid complaints and to them I say Kudos. Let's figure out what they are so IF they can be addressed, let's address them and get things moving. It's those people who say "This sucks because my screensaver isn't the same" that get to me. Is it a valid complaint? No. Was the complaint addressed? Several times. Are they accepting the solutions? No. So, like I said before, I'm not against anyone with a valid problem. Warhawk (in my opinion) has/had one. Other people on this post has/had one (or more). But to those that don't, don't degrade another project just because they didn't bend to your demands. And especially don't do it behind the protection of another forum. You forget that now this is BOINC. I crunch Einstein as much as SETI (or Rosetta, LHC, CP etc). I'm here as much as SETI. I'm here because this project is one I believe in, not to patrol boards and flame users. And honestly, anyone who does that is truly wasting resources that could be put to a better cause.
Well said. I was surprised to come back to this thread after a week or so and find my polite and (I thought at least) well reasoned comments buried and hidden by all the - votes. We appear to have a lot of children here.
Well said. I was surprised to come back to this thread after a week or so and find my polite and (I thought at least) well reasoned comments buried and hidden by all the - votes. We appear to have a lot of children here.
Not that I vote "-", but, I do feel your contention that you were treated "shabbily" is equally childish. Equally odd, the contention that somehow because I started BOINC before you I got treated better is mind boggling ...
The reward is in the journey. The fact that I compiled a meaningless score in one project, and am now compiling an equally meaningless number score in a follow-on project would somehow be made meaningful if they added one score to the other also makes no sense to me.
UCB did not promise that they would maintain an accounting system of your participation at all. The fact they did is nice, but, we volunteered and have to take the good with the bad.
Anyway, if that makes me an appologist, well, sorry to lose your good opinion. But, is all your identity defined by your score in SETI@Home?
When you drop a dollar in the collection plate for your church, do you have veto rights on where every penny is spent?
I did SETI@home Classic for a while - enjoyed the experience generally.
Then I found out about BOINC, which would allow me to choose from a range of science projects and I crunched Seti there.
Later I found out about Einstein@home and discovered the joys of a server that always gave me downloads and uploads. I've got around 8000 credits in Einstein - small fry compared to the real sloggers here, but enjoyed the process.
Then the application changed somewhat so now I crunch for Climate@home.
Basically what I'm getting at is "hold the egos" - we're trying to help scientists that cannot afford the super computers (and if I remember correctly, even those cannot provide the computing power of DC) - how we do it, the apps we use, project we support - all that is just chaff. The main thing is to help these guys and hopefully make the world a better place.
Best wishes to all over you classic & boinc alike.
Well said. I was surprised to come back to this thread after a week or so and find my polite and (I thought at least) well reasoned comments buried and hidden by all the - votes. We appear to have a lot of children here.
Not that I vote "-", but, I do feel your contention that you were treated "shabbily" is equally childish. Equally odd, the contention that somehow because I started BOINC before you I got treated better is mind boggling ...
The reward is in the journey. The fact that I compiled a meaningless score in one project, and am now compiling an equally meaningless number score in a follow-on project would somehow be made meaningful if they added one score to the other also makes no sense to me.
UCB did not promise that they would maintain an accounting system of your participation at all. The fact they did is nice, but, we volunteered and have to take the good with the bad.
Anyway, if that makes me an appologist, well, sorry to lose your good opinion. But, is all your identity defined by your score in SETI@Home?
When you drop a dollar in the collection plate for your church, do you have veto rights on where every penny is spent?
We will just have to disagree on the level of shabbiness the original SAH people received. I think I made a better argument for it than your 'I don't think' though.
I'm sorry. I in no way contended you got treated better because you were paying attention and converted sooner. You are reading something there that i did NOT write. I should point out that even had i converted sooner, i'd still have lost 3+ years of SAH and my complaints would be the same.
Apparently it's not quite so meaningless to you. It generated enough interest for you to at least reply to my comments.
Your contention that no promises of accounting is relevant, isn't. The fact that a score IS being kept and that we're doing the same wu for the same project with basically the same app, IS.
It's not a matter of 'identity', it's a matter of justice. You'll note I'm still crunching peoples work despite my complaints.
I'm agnostic. I don't go to church. When I do charitable donations you can be sure they are as specific as possible to what I want to support, though how your last comment is even remotely relevant to the discussion at hand eludes me.
The REAL point of the post, however, was the fact that undoubtedly many of the people who have walked away and not gone to BOINC were angered over this and it's the proximate cause of losing a lot of crunching power we could be making real use of.
Perhaps they at UCB have yet to learn a simple lesson of life, 'You don't treat badly the people you want a favor from.'
First off, let me say thanks to KWSN for sticking with crunching despite complaints. A person more in touch with reality could do no better. I wish more people could have learned that lesson and stuck it out, but the past is passed.
On a different note, I am baffled. This next part is written out of ignorance and not out of contention so any replies to this, please make an honest answer and not a contentious one. But I seem to be missing some information here. How is it people have lost there credits? I can look at my account and see my frozen Classic score. It's not higher than 96% of the other users, but it's still there. So really, did people have their accounts zeroed or something?
And I'm not seeing how people were treated shabbily. They say that you shouldn't judge a person until you see things from their eyes. I'm really trying to understand here so don't flame me for anything. But really, I'm just not understanding how people were mistreated. Maybe it's because of my low Classic score that I'm in ignorance, or maybe it isn't. Is it because the score stopped on Classic and started ticking a different way? Is it because they weren't posting news on a regular/semi-regular basis? Is it because they didn't put up some kind of web based poll to get user input on how to steer the project?
I've heard people complaining about both of these things (most complained about anyways) and I'm really trying to understand why they are. If someone could politely enlighten me, I'd appreciate it and probably all of you would too since someone else would understand.
We will just have to disagree on the level of shabbiness the original SAH people received. I think I made a better argument for it than your 'I don't think' though.
Again, you miss the point of my question. Why do you feel that your were mistreated? I did the Classic project, then BOINC and will likely do the follow-on when that occurs. I don't feel abused, and I am genuinely puzzled by this insistance that you were.
Quote:
I'm sorry. I in no way contended you got treated better because you were paying attention and converted sooner. You are reading something there that i did NOT write. I should point out that even had i converted sooner, i'd still have lost 3+ years of SAH and my complaints would be the same.
You have not lost anything. You still have your SETI@Home credits in your account and can still wear them proudly.
I grant that you did not explicitly say that. But, in general, the complaint you make; when made seems to divide the world into two groups, SETI@Home Classic users and others, in your case the term you use is "appologists". Well, I guess I really fit into both categories.
Quote:
Apparently it's not quite so meaningless to you. It generated enough interest for you to at least reply to my comments.
I am autistic, so I don't do feelings well and this insistance on mistreatment by UCB has me very puzzled. At no time had they promised anything. They did say that they would keep a count of the work you did and had a system for that in Classic. During the design of BOINC, for which they DID listen to us participants when we said we wanted a system we could have more faith in the granting of the awards.
In BOINC we have a system that is in fact harder to "game" than the one in classic. Is it perfect? No, and the flaws are known. The first upgrade to attempt to fix the most obvious and easily corrected problem is in testing and I hope to see it any day now ...
Do I want a guy that gamed the system in Classic to suddenly have his ill-gotten gains turned into gold again? Nope, not me. I am proud of the 61K work units I did. But, you have no way of knowing that I did them fair and square; or found a -9 work unit and sent it back thousands of times. I really don't like liars and cheats. And I really like the idea of hitting them where it hurts. Does it cost me anything? Nope, I been doing my work for awhile now and you have reasonable confidence that I did not send in shoddy work.
Quote:
Your contention that no promises of accounting is relevant, isn't. The fact that a score IS being kept and that we're doing the same wu for the same project with basically the same app, IS.
It's not a matter of 'identity', it's a matter of justice. You'll note I'm still crunching peoples work despite my complaints.
Justice? You still have your count. Why is it more just to convert one score into another? Does the superbowl winner one year get an automatic 6 wins the next? Nope, new game, new scores, new playing field.
And, it is not the same application. Actually it has been changed at least once since Beta if I recall my history correctly, and the one that was done in beta was slightly modified from the Classic version. And the whole back end is vastly different. And the real science is done on the back end. Not on the client applications. So, the SYSTEM, of which the client side is just a part is not even close to being the same.
Quote:
I'm agnostic. I don't go to church. When I do charitable donations you can be sure they are as specific as possible to what I want to support, though how your last comment is even remotely relevant to the discussion at hand eludes me.
A donation is a donation. You donate your computer time. You volunteered. Same thing. You have no control over a donation or gift when it is given. You gift your computer time with no promise of anything in return.
Again, in specific, at no time were you promised, or even had a suggestion that the Classic accounting would be carried forward to BOINC in any form other than what you have.
Quote:
The REAL point of the post, however, was the fact that undoubtedly many of the people who have walked away and not gone to BOINC were angered over this and it's the proximate cause of losing a lot of crunching power we could be making real use of.
Perhaps they at UCB have yet to learn a simple lesson of life, 'You don't treat badly the people you want a favor from.'
If this is all it takes to make them stop contributing to science and exploration then, well, childish doesn't even begin to describe that behavior. "Give me what I want or I will take my marbles and go home!" is about as self centered and childish as I can imagine. And, I hate to say this, but, maybe they left for other reasons? Like, they could not continue to cheat to inflate thier egos?
At no time has anyDC project made the claim that their goal was to harness every scrap of space CPU time in the universe. Would they like to? Sure. A goal, please ...
So, you were promised nothing ...
Your Classic score is intact ...
But you feel cheated because you did not get what you wanted.
Overall Observation : See
)
Overall Observation :
See how the "new SETI Community" roam even other Projects' Messageboards to rate Postings negative and Flame away ?
No wonder many of the oldschool Members turned their back and walked away from the one Project they helped grow up in the first place. Now the 'new kids on the block' are free to play there, with the obvious Results one can observe even over here.
Anyway, welcome Warhawk, nice to see you around here :)
Just for the record, I
)
Just for the record, I personally am not one for flaming. However, I am one all for defense of something I work for or believe in. SETI qualifies for both categories. I would do the same for Einstein, Rosetta, LHC or any number of projects I crunch because I only crunch those I think will be of benefit. So, insults to me can come as much as a person wants because they mean nothing to me. But when a person degrades something in those categories, I am on the front lines defending. Just remember, it all started somewhere. It's one of those chicken vs. egg arguments. Was it the person who said "This sucks" that started everything or the person that said "You're stupid"? I don't know, and I don't care. I only wish it would stop. But I still think it's pretty sad when people hide behind the walls of other forums to talk bad about a project they never REALLY gave a chance to. Am I singling out Warhawk? No. Someone that dedicated (15+ machines) should have several (15+) valid complaints, especially in the department of downtime (work = worth it). Many people have valid complaints and to them I say Kudos. Let's figure out what they are so IF they can be addressed, let's address them and get things moving. It's those people who say "This sucks because my screensaver isn't the same" that get to me. Is it a valid complaint? No. Was the complaint addressed? Several times. Are they accepting the solutions? No. So, like I said before, I'm not against anyone with a valid problem. Warhawk (in my opinion) has/had one. Other people on this post has/had one (or more). But to those that don't, don't degrade another project just because they didn't bend to your demands. And especially don't do it behind the protection of another forum. You forget that now this is BOINC. I crunch Einstein as much as SETI (or Rosetta, LHC, CP etc). I'm here as much as SETI. I'm here because this project is one I believe in, not to patrol boards and flame users. And honestly, anyone who does that is truly wasting resources that could be put to a better cause.
RE: Just for the record, I
)
Well said. I was surprised to come back to this thread after a week or so and find my polite and (I thought at least) well reasoned comments buried and hidden by all the - votes. We appear to have a lot of children here.
Hmmmmmmmm.....
)
Hmmmmmmmm.....
RE: Well said. I was
)
Not that I vote "-", but, I do feel your contention that you were treated "shabbily" is equally childish. Equally odd, the contention that somehow because I started BOINC before you I got treated better is mind boggling ...
The reward is in the journey. The fact that I compiled a meaningless score in one project, and am now compiling an equally meaningless number score in a follow-on project would somehow be made meaningful if they added one score to the other also makes no sense to me.
UCB did not promise that they would maintain an accounting system of your participation at all. The fact they did is nice, but, we volunteered and have to take the good with the bad.
Anyway, if that makes me an appologist, well, sorry to lose your good opinion. But, is all your identity defined by your score in SETI@Home?
When you drop a dollar in the collection plate for your church, do you have veto rights on where every penny is spent?
Hello Guys and Gals I did
)
Hello Guys and Gals
I did SETI@home Classic for a while - enjoyed the experience generally.
Then I found out about BOINC, which would allow me to choose from a range of science projects and I crunched Seti there.
Later I found out about Einstein@home and discovered the joys of a server that always gave me downloads and uploads. I've got around 8000 credits in Einstein - small fry compared to the real sloggers here, but enjoyed the process.
Then the application changed somewhat so now I crunch for Climate@home.
Basically what I'm getting at is "hold the egos" - we're trying to help scientists that cannot afford the super computers (and if I remember correctly, even those cannot provide the computing power of DC) - how we do it, the apps we use, project we support - all that is just chaff. The main thing is to help these guys and hopefully make the world a better place.
Best wishes to all over you classic & boinc alike.
Gray
RE: RE: Well said. I was
)
We will just have to disagree on the level of shabbiness the original SAH people received. I think I made a better argument for it than your 'I don't think' though.
I'm sorry. I in no way contended you got treated better because you were paying attention and converted sooner. You are reading something there that i did NOT write. I should point out that even had i converted sooner, i'd still have lost 3+ years of SAH and my complaints would be the same.
Apparently it's not quite so meaningless to you. It generated enough interest for you to at least reply to my comments.
Your contention that no promises of accounting is relevant, isn't. The fact that a score IS being kept and that we're doing the same wu for the same project with basically the same app, IS.
It's not a matter of 'identity', it's a matter of justice. You'll note I'm still crunching peoples work despite my complaints.
I'm agnostic. I don't go to church. When I do charitable donations you can be sure they are as specific as possible to what I want to support, though how your last comment is even remotely relevant to the discussion at hand eludes me.
The REAL point of the post, however, was the fact that undoubtedly many of the people who have walked away and not gone to BOINC were angered over this and it's the proximate cause of losing a lot of crunching power we could be making real use of.
Perhaps they at UCB have yet to learn a simple lesson of life, 'You don't treat badly the people you want a favor from.'
First off, let me say thanks
)
First off, let me say thanks to KWSN for sticking with crunching despite complaints. A person more in touch with reality could do no better. I wish more people could have learned that lesson and stuck it out, but the past is passed.
On a different note, I am baffled. This next part is written out of ignorance and not out of contention so any replies to this, please make an honest answer and not a contentious one. But I seem to be missing some information here. How is it people have lost there credits? I can look at my account and see my frozen Classic score. It's not higher than 96% of the other users, but it's still there. So really, did people have their accounts zeroed or something?
And I'm not seeing how people were treated shabbily. They say that you shouldn't judge a person until you see things from their eyes. I'm really trying to understand here so don't flame me for anything. But really, I'm just not understanding how people were mistreated. Maybe it's because of my low Classic score that I'm in ignorance, or maybe it isn't. Is it because the score stopped on Classic and started ticking a different way? Is it because they weren't posting news on a regular/semi-regular basis? Is it because they didn't put up some kind of web based poll to get user input on how to steer the project?
I've heard people complaining about both of these things (most complained about anyways) and I'm really trying to understand why they are. If someone could politely enlighten me, I'd appreciate it and probably all of you would too since someone else would understand.
RE: We will just have to
)
Again, you miss the point of my question. Why do you feel that your were mistreated? I did the Classic project, then BOINC and will likely do the follow-on when that occurs. I don't feel abused, and I am genuinely puzzled by this insistance that you were.
You have not lost anything. You still have your SETI@Home credits in your account and can still wear them proudly.
I grant that you did not explicitly say that. But, in general, the complaint you make; when made seems to divide the world into two groups, SETI@Home Classic users and others, in your case the term you use is "appologists". Well, I guess I really fit into both categories.
I am autistic, so I don't do feelings well and this insistance on mistreatment by UCB has me very puzzled. At no time had they promised anything. They did say that they would keep a count of the work you did and had a system for that in Classic. During the design of BOINC, for which they DID listen to us participants when we said we wanted a system we could have more faith in the granting of the awards.
In BOINC we have a system that is in fact harder to "game" than the one in classic. Is it perfect? No, and the flaws are known. The first upgrade to attempt to fix the most obvious and easily corrected problem is in testing and I hope to see it any day now ...
Do I want a guy that gamed the system in Classic to suddenly have his ill-gotten gains turned into gold again? Nope, not me. I am proud of the 61K work units I did. But, you have no way of knowing that I did them fair and square; or found a -9 work unit and sent it back thousands of times. I really don't like liars and cheats. And I really like the idea of hitting them where it hurts. Does it cost me anything? Nope, I been doing my work for awhile now and you have reasonable confidence that I did not send in shoddy work.
Justice? You still have your count. Why is it more just to convert one score into another? Does the superbowl winner one year get an automatic 6 wins the next? Nope, new game, new scores, new playing field.
And, it is not the same application. Actually it has been changed at least once since Beta if I recall my history correctly, and the one that was done in beta was slightly modified from the Classic version. And the whole back end is vastly different. And the real science is done on the back end. Not on the client applications. So, the SYSTEM, of which the client side is just a part is not even close to being the same.
A donation is a donation. You donate your computer time. You volunteered. Same thing. You have no control over a donation or gift when it is given. You gift your computer time with no promise of anything in return.
Again, in specific, at no time were you promised, or even had a suggestion that the Classic accounting would be carried forward to BOINC in any form other than what you have.
If this is all it takes to make them stop contributing to science and exploration then, well, childish doesn't even begin to describe that behavior. "Give me what I want or I will take my marbles and go home!" is about as self centered and childish as I can imagine. And, I hate to say this, but, maybe they left for other reasons? Like, they could not continue to cheat to inflate thier egos?
At no time has anyDC project made the claim that their goal was to harness every scrap of space CPU time in the universe. Would they like to? Sure. A goal, please ...
So, you were promised nothing ...
Your Classic score is intact ...
But you feel cheated because you did not get what you wanted.
I still don't get it.
RE: I still don't get
)
And apparently you won't either as you are a master at ignoring every clear point I made.
Oh well.