Uncle Albert's Cafe and Ǽ-Theory Bistro

Mike Hewson
Mike Hewson
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They are amusing indeed. You

They are amusing indeed. You wont learn any science though.

What you will see is a tutorial in good old fashioned Greek rhetoric, straw men construction ( I'll answer what I prefer you'd said, rather than what you had actually said ), ad-hominem ( personal attacks on unrelated issues ), false implicative logic ( a false proposition can imply anything ), subtle derogation ( 'only serious people could support my view ....' ), outright lies and the good old standby - 'I assert, thus you must disprove'. Much of this is neatly summed by one of the contributors :

Quote:
If the facts are irrefutable, pound the evidence. If the evidence cannot be refuted, pound its source. If the source is unimpeachable, pound the table.


which I think is based on an old legal aphorism

Quote:
"When the facts are against, you argue the law. When the law is against you, argue the facts. When the law and the facts are both against you, pound the table."


Late last year I was dumb enough to ask on an Amazom.com forum ( I was there ordering books and I casually clicked a link that looked interesting ) : where the data was held that everybody seemed to be quoting in the AGW debate? No one knew where it was, if it was publicly available, how one could obtain it etc. I had thought that the discussion they were having was based upon some commonly viewable data set that they were, in a lively fashion, trying to assess how to interpret trends upon. Silly me. Then the CRU thing arrived and answered the whole 'who has the data' question for me.

Which saddened me, as many a time science is being used as a commercial/political/social agenda tool - frequently well away from original research situation - stripped of all/most of the crucial contextual understandings. It's what I personally dub as 'negative constructs' in the same fashion that one can whittle any shape at all from a piece of wood, or the sculpture already existing in the rough hewn stone just awaiting the chisel's action. The brilliance of this technique for the liars and thieves of this world is that one can readily hide what was thrown away. [ This could be a succinct definition of Fleet Street, say ]

Cheers, Mike

( edit ) While these are very longstanding human habits/traits, I think one reason why the 'mainstream/traditional' media seems to be leaning harder on such techniques thesedays is the Internet. Their audiences are evaporating in the presence of it. Why refer to a news 'service' when you can go to source? It's quicker, and you get to view the scraps that would otherwise lie on the cutting room floor too.

I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...

... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal

Rod
Rod
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Yes... What frustrates

Yes...

What frustrates me.. Is that I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person. But I am no scientist. I need a creditable authoritative source to explain to me in language I can understand science issues that interest me, not what interests the source. Nobody take this wrong way but I was spoiled/lazy When working I had large resource and I would direct them to write me an objective report. Now out here I am overwhelmed with facts/opinions from a whole whack of sources.

Maybe there should be an independent licensing body to rate these sources. Everybody has access to it. Like anything.. You should have the tools available to you to make decisions and mitigate the risk that they wrong.

edit:

Just take the crap about vaccines and autism. I have creditable source I would talk to my family doctor who I built a relationship with and personally trust.

There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot. - Aldo Leopold

Mike Hewson
Mike Hewson
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RE: Yes... What frustrates

Message 66542 in response to message 66541

Quote:

Yes...

What frustrates me.. Is that I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person. But I am no scientist. I need a creditable authoritative source to explain to me in language I can understand science issues that interest me, not what interests the source. Nobody take this wrong way but I was spoiled/lazy When working I had large resource and I would direct them to write me an objective report. Now out here I am overwhelmed with facts/opinions from a whole whack of sources.

Maybe there should be an independent licensing body to rate these sources. Everybody has access to it. Like anything.. You should have the tools available to you to make decisions and mitigate the risk that they wrong.

edit:

Just take the crap about vaccines and autism. I have creditable source I would talk to my family doctor who I built a relationship with and personally trust.


It's a trap for us all, because even if you are a 'scientist' - whatever that might mean - you can't master everything. We all need to refer to the specialty of others, and in turn return our personal specialty to others.

[ 'Hypothetical' re. autism/vaccines - it is yet to be widespread knowledge that a certain gentleman is doing time in a UK jail for criminal fraud after receiving moneys from a legal group to do research with a particular conclusion. Said conclusion was to be quoted later in court action against the vaccine manufacturers. In terms of waste material from wood whittling this is the equivalent of a black hole's mass. No one wants to publish it because of the self evident backlash from the legal firm in question. Being my knowledge only personally acquired from very trusted contacts I can only quote detail in the confines of a confidential medical consultation. Alas very few jurisdictions have 'truth alone' as sufficient defense for libel/slander. ]

In the Amazon/AGW thing it wasn't really the CRU stuff that was upsetting. We are all human including the investigators, so that sort of behaviour happens. Fix it, and move on. What was the far deeper problem was that most Amazon contributors, regardless of point of view, were quite unconcerned about the absence of referable data. They appeared to truly think that science was just a matter of discussion and opinion without reference to measurement. For many it seemed to be an implicit response rather than realised/planned/deliberate strategy. I think this feature has been picked up by many news outlets and they are surfing to profit upon it. Quite bizarrely some news services which absolutely pasted the CIA, in it's darker days, for the 'plausible deniability' tactic have now co-opted it as their own. So don't despair, if you want to :

Quote:
understand science issues that interest me, not what interests the source


then you are already way ahead of the pack! :-)

Cheers, Mike.

( edit ) Sorry, 'plausible deniability' means : it sounds true but non-one can disprove it. You'll see it as a lubricant generously applied within many modern news engines.

I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...

... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal

Rod
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RE: ( edit ) Sorry,

Message 66543 in response to message 66542

Quote:

( edit ) Sorry, 'plausible deniability' means : it sounds true but non-one can disprove it. You'll see it as a lubricant generously applied within many modern news engines.

Well I have time to put my GMO decision on the back burner.. It will be a couple of years before I will have to vote on it. There is a lot of crap out there on that. People like to play zero sum games and paint everything with a broad brush.

I think I will explore issues on how science and society interact. When you are retired you can be fickle:)

I just reactivated my subscription to the IEEE digital library. When you are uncomfortable, there nothing like comfort food.:-)

There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot. - Aldo Leopold

Rod
Rod
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Ah Comfort food

Ah Comfort food :-)

Genetically Modified Maize in Mexico: Varied Responses to Technology
Arechavala-Vargas, R.; Diaz-Perez, C.; Huerta-Ruvalcaba, J.P.
Science, Technology and Innovation Policy, 2007 Atlanta Conference on
Date: 19-20 Oct. 2007, Pages: 1 - 7
Digital Object Identifier 10.1109/ACSTIP.2007.4472877

Abstract
Mexico is known as the place of origin of maize in the world. Around 50 races and more than 400 varieties have been identified. For centuries, it has been one of the main sources of nutrients for the population. As genetically modified organisms (GMO's) have begun to gain salience as an economical alternative to grain shortage, social issues emerge that create increasing tensions with groups and non-governmental organizations (NGO's) that work for the protection of biodiversity, and for the preservation of traditions and culture. These tensions manifest themselves as opposition to the use of GMO's, and as the challenging of the role that multinational corporations play in the national economy. Among the general population, however, there is little knowledge about the possibilities, the risks and the economic impact of using GM seeds. The purpose of this research is to assess the outlook that corn producers have about the eventual use of GM seed in their farms, on the basis of a project that aims to characterize agricultural production units in different regions of the country, and to identify those variables that determine productivity, profitability and purchase decisions in maize-producing farms. Fieldwork was done in states that are considered to be representative of different patterns of technical and economic behavior in corn production through semi structured interviews with farmers and with representatives of producers' associations. The interviews assessed knowledge and attitudes towards technology and GMO's production patterns, and technical decision making in the farms. Secondary data analysis and time- series data were used to assess tendencies in economic variables and to monitor public opinion on issues related to GM corn production. Results point towards sharply stratified patterns of knowledge and opinion about GMO's that follow social and economic differences that are also deepening. Lower-level farmers tend to have no knowledge about hybrids a- nd GMO's, and tend also to follow unprofitable practices in their production units. At the other end we find high-level large-scale farms, with intensive patterns of production and use of technologically sophisticated inputs and machinery.

There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot. - Aldo Leopold

Rod
Rod
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Food for thought on data

Food for thought on data visualization for political purposes

Chart Wars

There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot. - Aldo Leopold

Rod
Rod
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RE: ( edit ) Sorry,

Message 66546 in response to message 66542

Quote:

( edit ) Sorry, 'plausible deniability' means : it sounds true but non-one can disprove it. You'll see it as a lubricant generously applied within many modern news engines.

With regard to autism, We have come someway regard to it and a long way to go.. There was a lot of bad science in the past Very Bad Science
Refrigerator Mother. Nothing but contempt for Kanner from this end and all the doctors who took an oath to do no harm.

Edit: I know parents who did not seek help for their children because of this label..

There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot. - Aldo Leopold

Rod
Rod
Joined: 3 Jan 06
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Credit: 811266
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RE: RE: ( edit ) Sorry,

Message 66547 in response to message 66546

Quote:
Quote:

( edit ) Sorry, 'plausible deniability' means : it sounds true but non-one can disprove it. You'll see it as a lubricant generously applied within many modern news engines.

With regard to autism, We have come someway regard to it and a long way to go.. There was a lot of bad science in the past Very Bad Science
Refrigerator Mother. Nothing but contempt for Kanner from this end and all the doctors who took an oath to do no harm.

Edit: I know parents who did not seek help for their children because of this label..


I apologize for using the word contempt. To tell you the truth, I do not know what contempt feels like. If it was any feeling it would be saddness.

There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot. - Aldo Leopold

Mike Hewson
Mike Hewson
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Joined: 1 Dec 05
Posts: 6591
Credit: 320180593
RAC: 431712

RE: RE: RE: ( edit )

Message 66548 in response to message 66547

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:

( edit ) Sorry, 'plausible deniability' means : it sounds true but non-one can disprove it. You'll see it as a lubricant generously applied within many modern news engines.

With regard to autism, We have come someway regard to it and a long way to go.. There was a lot of bad science in the past Very Bad Science
Refrigerator Mother. Nothing but contempt for Kanner from this end and all the doctors who took an oath to do no harm.

Edit: I know parents who did not seek help for their children because of this label..


I apologize for using the word contempt. To tell you the truth, I do not know what contempt feels like. If it was any feeling it would be saddness.


Couple of points re: autism.

- the word as used now is rather different than it's initial use some decades ago. So much so that often the phrase 'autism spectrum disorder' is now in vogue. I'm assuming this is probably because 'autism' fundamentally defies neat classification, and that workers in the field are perhaps unsure of what each other mean. The nett effect is to greatly broaden the number of people this phrase would apply to. ( eg. in recent years it has been stated there is an 'epidemic' of diabetes without mention that the diagnostic criteria for inclusion have been significantly softened. And now there is talk of 'pre-diabetes', some of which is simply talk amongst researchers as they investigate population characteristics, while other is an out & out tactic to whip up interest for some other aim - can't sell a cure if you haven't a disease! )

- features of 'autism' are what we all exhibit anyway, so it's a matter of degree.

- 'autism' does not equal 'diseased' or 'bad'. It's one of those assumptions that comes from the days when the 'anyone who is different must be worse' social impulses were stronger than now. ( well, I hope it is weaker now! )

As regards blaming maternal characteristics for child personalities etc then to the extent that such things are genetically influenced it's likely to include some level of correlation b/w observed effects of maternal genes ( phenotype ) which are thus often shared with offspring. One can have differing expression of genes depending on other genes present in the same individual ( including the gender specific ones on the X and Y chromosomes, so let's look at the Dads also ). But this is too vague an hypothesis probably to be readily testable - and I don't think it was what the original investigators were referring to. You'd have to do an entire 'nature vs nurture' long term study, possibly multi-generational and including all the nearby family tree, to sort this. Mind you many twin study programs do exactly that - my wife has been enrolled in one since birth - as they can assist in teasing out the environmental vs constitutional factors.

Cheers, Mike.

I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...

... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal

Rod
Rod
Joined: 3 Jan 06
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There is no such thing as an

There is no such thing as an authorative source..
Everybody must take their time and do their homework..:-)

I am typing this thing on my iPod. My computer is bent and in the shop, so there is probabily some spelling errors. I know, I can't spell since elementary school. I used to run home crying. :)

There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot. - Aldo Leopold

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