Would a sprinkler system have helped? It is reported that the residents apparently weren't keen on having one. Should they have been overruled? Should there be external fire escape stairs, should there be a central building evacuation alarm system, should these panels be banned? The recent refurbishment was carried out in accordance with, and met, all planning, building, and fire regulations. Are they now seen to be too lax? Many questions being asked.
The problem with external stairs is that can easily become grill grates, like outside BBQ grills, if the fire breaks thru a window and then there is no way people are going down them! MOST buildings now have internal stairwells that have fire resistant doors on them to each floor. The doors are supposed to automatically close behind a person as they go into the stairwell and have good top ventilation to allow for the smoke to move up and out fairly quickly. The problem with those is that people tend to prop them open and then the fire and smoke come in and again people can't go down them past the open doorway. Too many times bad people have used them to enter the buildings so often the doors lock once you are in the stairwell and the only way out is down, sometimes thru a fire because someone below you propped the door open!
As for sprinklers they do help when installed correctly and working, but they can dump alot of water in places that don't always need it if they aren't the kind that activates one at a time as needed, and they can cost ALOT of money initially to install and then more money to maintain them. Unfortunately they are not install and forget about them and they will always work things. One other thing to consider in a fire is the weight of all that water, water weighs 8.3 pounds per gallon, if you are dumping water from multiple sprinkler heads for HOURS into a building how long before that building comes down due to the added weight of the water and the structural compromise caused by the need for the sprinklers in the first place?
Unfortunately jumping from anything above the 2nd or 3rd floor is often life threatening due to the sudden stop at the bottom, it's not the fall that hurts you!! Living in a high rise building is a compromise we make in our lives, but doing so should be taken with info that most of us never think of or have access too. Add to that the sometimes middle of the night false alarms that people tend to ignore after a while and you can have a recipe for a disaster in the making. Fortunately that scenario happens very rarely, despite the fact that Dubai has had more than one in the last few years, and high rise living is an expanding way of life for those that need or just want to live in the city.
Well the tenants were overruled on so much else. We have a friend who lived in Grenfell up until the end of last year. He and his girlfriend moved out when they started their family because they wanted to grow old together and see their children do the same and didn't think that would happen if they stayed where they were for any length of time. They were able to rely on family members to enable them to do so. Not everyone can. They experienced bullying from the property management company whenever they raised a complaint with them. I know how that feels. So do my neighbours :(
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Now I know nothing about sprinkler systems other than there are wet risers and dry risers, but I am aware of comments made over the years. In large buildings sprinkler systems are often separated into zones so that the whole damn lot doesn't go off at once. There have been stories of a chip pan fire in one flat starting the sprinklers off, and in the flat next door as well. The second flats contents get ruined, then the sheer volume of water discharged leaks through the ceiling to the flat below, and cascades down the staircase making it hazardous, and of course electricity and water don't mix.
You often find that in the council owned older high rise blocks, there are tenants that are on benefits, and can't afford or don't have contents insurance. Somebody else's fire wipes them out. Grenfell tower is apparently in a deprived and poor area of their borough, so they are now homeless, with no possessions and no insurance. Although there is now no shortage of donations of clothes etc.
Waiting for Godot & salvation :-)
Why do doctors have to practice?
You'd think they'd have got it right by now
People who were communicating with those trapped on the upper floors till gone 3am reported that they had no water coming from their taps so could not follow fire brigade instructions to wet a towel and put it on the floor by their front doors :(( Those people are no longer able to testify to that, only their friends and family can.
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There are so many reports coming out at the present time that is is difficult to make any real assessment with certainty. But the full facts will all come out at the public enquiry. That will be too late to save those who perished in this dreadful fire, but what we need now are urgent inspections of every tower block in the UK to determine their fire safety in conjunction with the Fire brigade. There should be a government plan to enable that and fund it, and also fund any remedial work found necessary. Grenfell was designed in 1967 50 years ago, to the regulations then current at the time, and completed in 1974. I suspect that planning permission for that design it wouldn't be granted today.
It is telling that the local residents association want the local Council entirely removed from any further negotiations upon their future, but it is hard to see how that could happen in practice as the Council own the tower. The demonstrations at Downing street and the brief occupation of the Town Hall were understandable, but it also being reported that professional agitators were in evidence whipping them up to protest.
I mentioned earlier about no contents insurance, Yes alternative accommodation can be found, and donated clothes can be given. But you still need a bed to sleep in, a chair to sit on, a wardrobe, a sideboard, a TV, fridge, cooker etc. Even with all that, albums of family photographs cannot be replaced.
Now some are saying that the 70 missing includes the known 30 dead, not in addition. I would have thought that there should be one central point of information, it seems not. The media seem to be passing on anything they get told.
Waiting for Godot & salvation :-)
Why do doctors have to practice?
You'd think they'd have got it right by now
In February of 1974 http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1974/02/02/page/1/article/skyscraper-fire-kills-181-in-brazil 181 died in a fire in Brazil. Before the end of 1974 fire sprinklers were mandatory in multi-story buildings in the USA, no exceptions. Grenfeld was built that year. No excuse. In the years since then, many places have required retrofitting sprinkler systems into all multistory buildings.
If you still have the really old tech sprinkler systems that aren't charged at all times with individual heat sensors on each head, well, change your damn code before the lords kill more commoners.
As to stopping this fire, how about a drenched kitchen flat with a bad appliance that never lets the fire get big enough to catch the cladding on the outside. How many lives saved?
As to those fire doors yes, too many dolts prop them open, that is why the fire brigade has to make frequent repeat inspections of every building. Fire doors operational. Sprinkler systems tested. Fire alarms tested. Elevators tested. Fire control rooms inspected, and all systems tested.
Of course if you want to kill people, keep doing the same thing.
It does give a rather unfortunate impression when the rest of the world can see what our expensively educated elected ones can't... or won't :/
Of course if you want to kill people, keep doing the same thing.
Do you mind if we don't let them consider that as an option, Gary... I would be most grateful...
edit: I have to go and cook something now... back in a bit... possibly after Doctor Who if my mum nods off during it :) I promised my son I would. He usually watches it with his dad.
Please wait here. Further instructions could pile up at any time. Thank you.
change your damn code before the lords kill more commoners.
I take it that you are aware of the British political system where the Government of the day proposes legislation in the House of Commons, which can be amended by the House of Lords.
I think there was one earlier this year where something (that was expected to be overturned in the House of Lords) just happened to get filibustered in the commons so never got there. I don't know how often that happens, and only noticed that one because it would have benefitted people with autism and other disabilities, so didn't.
My sister rang me a little while ago! From India :) It was lovely to almost hear her voice...
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Chris S_2 wrote: Would a
The problem with external stairs is that can easily become grill grates, like outside BBQ grills, if the fire breaks thru a window and then there is no way people are going down them! MOST buildings now have internal stairwells that have fire resistant doors on them to each floor. The doors are supposed to automatically close behind a person as they go into the stairwell and have good top ventilation to allow for the smoke to move up and out fairly quickly. The problem with those is that people tend to prop them open and then the fire and smoke come in and again people can't go down them past the open doorway. Too many times bad people have used them to enter the buildings so often the doors lock once you are in the stairwell and the only way out is down, sometimes thru a fire because someone below you propped the door open!
As for sprinklers they do help when installed correctly and working, but they can dump alot of water in places that don't always need it if they aren't the kind that activates one at a time as needed, and they can cost ALOT of money initially to install and then more money to maintain them. Unfortunately they are not install and forget about them and they will always work things. One other thing to consider in a fire is the weight of all that water, water weighs 8.3 pounds per gallon, if you are dumping water from multiple sprinkler heads for HOURS into a building how long before that building comes down due to the added weight of the water and the structural compromise caused by the need for the sprinklers in the first place?
Unfortunately jumping from anything above the 2nd or 3rd floor is often life threatening due to the sudden stop at the bottom, it's not the fall that hurts you!! Living in a high rise building is a compromise we make in our lives, but doing so should be taken with info that most of us never think of or have access too. Add to that the sometimes middle of the night false alarms that people tend to ignore after a while and you can have a recipe for a disaster in the making. Fortunately that scenario happens very rarely, despite the fact that Dubai has had more than one in the last few years, and high rise living is an expanding way of life for those that need or just want to live in the city.
Should they have been
Well the tenants were overruled on so much else. We have a friend who lived in Grenfell up until the end of last year. He and his girlfriend moved out when they started their family because they wanted to grow old together and see their children do the same and didn't think that would happen if they stayed where they were for any length of time. They were able to rely on family members to enable them to do so. Not everyone can. They experienced bullying from the property management company whenever they raised a complaint with them. I know how that feels. So do my neighbours :(
Please wait here. Further instructions could pile up at any time. Thank you.
Many thanks Annie, I owe you
Many thanks Annie, I owe you one!
Now I know nothing about sprinkler systems other than there are wet risers and dry risers, but I am aware of comments made over the years. In large buildings sprinkler systems are often separated into zones so that the whole damn lot doesn't go off at once. There have been stories of a chip pan fire in one flat starting the sprinklers off, and in the flat next door as well. The second flats contents get ruined, then the sheer volume of water discharged leaks through the ceiling to the flat below, and cascades down the staircase making it hazardous, and of course electricity and water don't mix.
You often find that in the council owned older high rise blocks, there are tenants that are on benefits, and can't afford or don't have contents insurance. Somebody else's fire wipes them out. Grenfell tower is apparently in a deprived and poor area of their borough, so they are now homeless, with no possessions and no insurance. Although there is now no shortage of donations of clothes etc.
Waiting for Godot & salvation :-)
Why do doctors have to practice?
You'd think they'd have got it right by now
People who were communicating
People who were communicating with those trapped on the upper floors till gone 3am reported that they had no water coming from their taps so could not follow fire brigade instructions to wet a towel and put it on the floor by their front doors :(( Those people are no longer able to testify to that, only their friends and family can.
Please wait here. Further instructions could pile up at any time. Thank you.
There are so many reports
There are so many reports coming out at the present time that is is difficult to make any real assessment with certainty. But the full facts will all come out at the public enquiry. That will be too late to save those who perished in this dreadful fire, but what we need now are urgent inspections of every tower block in the UK to determine their fire safety in conjunction with the Fire brigade. There should be a government plan to enable that and fund it, and also fund any remedial work found necessary. Grenfell was designed in 1967 50 years ago, to the regulations then current at the time, and completed in 1974. I suspect that planning permission for that design it wouldn't be granted today.
It is telling that the local residents association want the local Council entirely removed from any further negotiations upon their future, but it is hard to see how that could happen in practice as the Council own the tower. The demonstrations at Downing street and the brief occupation of the Town Hall were understandable, but it also being reported that professional agitators were in evidence whipping them up to protest.
I mentioned earlier about no contents insurance, Yes alternative accommodation can be found, and donated clothes can be given. But you still need a bed to sleep in, a chair to sit on, a wardrobe, a sideboard, a TV, fridge, cooker etc. Even with all that, albums of family photographs cannot be replaced.
Now some are saying that the 70 missing includes the known 30 dead, not in addition. I would have thought that there should be one central point of information, it seems not. The media seem to be passing on anything they get told.
Waiting for Godot & salvation :-)
Why do doctors have to practice?
You'd think they'd have got it right by now
In February of 1974
In February of 1974 http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1974/02/02/page/1/article/skyscraper-fire-kills-181-in-brazil 181 died in a fire in Brazil. Before the end of 1974 fire sprinklers were mandatory in multi-story buildings in the USA, no exceptions. Grenfeld was built that year. No excuse. In the years since then, many places have required retrofitting sprinkler systems into all multistory buildings.
If you still have the really old tech sprinkler systems that aren't charged at all times with individual heat sensors on each head, well, change your damn code before the lords kill more commoners.
As to stopping this fire, how about a drenched kitchen flat with a bad appliance that never lets the fire get big enough to catch the cladding on the outside. How many lives saved?
As to those fire doors yes, too many dolts prop them open, that is why the fire brigade has to make frequent repeat inspections of every building. Fire doors operational. Sprinkler systems tested. Fire alarms tested. Elevators tested. Fire control rooms inspected, and all systems tested.
Of course if you want to kill people, keep doing the same thing.
It does give a rather
It does give a rather unfortunate impression when the rest of the world can see what our expensively educated elected ones can't... or won't :/
Do you mind if we don't let them consider that as an option, Gary... I would be most grateful...
edit: I have to go and cook something now... back in a bit... possibly after Doctor Who if my mum nods off during it :) I promised my son I would. He usually watches it with his dad.
Please wait here. Further instructions could pile up at any time. Thank you.
change your damn code before
I take it that you are aware of the British political system where the Government of the day proposes legislation in the House of Commons, which can be amended by the House of Lords.
Bills in Parliament
Waiting for Godot & salvation :-)
Why do doctors have to practice?
You'd think they'd have got it right by now
I think there was one earlier
I think there was one earlier this year where something (that was expected to be overturned in the House of Lords) just happened to get filibustered in the commons so never got there. I don't know how often that happens, and only noticed that one because it would have benefitted people with autism and other disabilities, so didn't.
My sister rang me a little while ago! From India :) It was lovely to almost hear her voice...
Please wait here. Further instructions could pile up at any time. Thank you.
My sister rang me a little
I am so pleased to hear that :-))
Waiting for Godot & salvation :-)
Why do doctors have to practice?
You'd think they'd have got it right by now