.... accused of hastening death by using untrained first aid ...
Again the litigious logic is close to perfect. When you intervene one of two instances must hold :
- if you weren't trained in first aid, then what were you doing trying ? No escape there.
- if you were trained in first aid, then as the patient died/whatever you must have screwed up. To escape this you have to show that the outcome would be worse without intervention ( the Walk On By outcome ), which is all-nigh impossible if a beyond reasonable doubt test is applied rather than balance of probability. The specificity of most real situations denies sufficiently close analogy to any alternative a court might be gracious to consider ( that's the lesson of recent case law anyway ).
In any event, regardless of final legal endpoints, who in their right mind would be bothered with forced involvement in said legal process ? There's is an enormous downside to even being named in an action .... typically an unrecoverable loss from then on whatever is finalised. Hence the Pay To Go Away strategy which is not unlike pirates of several centuries ago who would plunder but not harshly wound their targets : let them recover for next season's pickings.
Hence this recurses to Atomic Attack Civil Defense Logic : if The Bomb goes off your only defense is to not be there ! :-)
Cheers, Mike.
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
All this talk about lawsuits etc makes my head hurt, being a paid firefighter for 24 years means I had to help people as part of my job, I never go sued, not once, knock on wood!! BUT I AM in Virginia, USA, and we DO have a very good Good Samaritan Law in effect that essentially says 'if you try in good faith and you are all that there is, you are covered'. There is also NO requirement for you to intervene if you choose not too, BUT once you DO at least attempt to help you CAN NOT then decide to walk away and 'change your mind'. We have had Dr's start helping people who fell down on the sidewalk who then had to give up more than their lunch hour because 'they got involved'. The 'rule' we go by is that the highest level of medical training person MUST stay with the patient, so if someone with no training is 'trying' and a firefighter shows up the original person can leave, but then the firefighter must stay until a paramedic shows up, and they must then stay until a Dr shows up. If a Dr does any helping they MUST stay thru the ride to the hospital though, otherwise the patient could receive a lower level of care and if they died, or got complications, the Dr could be sued out of their license. This usually means most Dr's do NOT intervene, even to say 'do this or don't do that' because 'helping' is a judgement call usually made by a Jury!!
After I retired I decided I would no longer stop at accidents or injuries, BUT I DO make the call to the local Fire Department letting them know someone needs their assistance, or I saw an accident or whatever. I live in a Metropolitan area and there is ALWAYS someone stopping to help, me stopping too can mean traffic comes to a standstill and that can mean even more problems for the emergency folks getting there, so I call instead of stopping. My neighborhood has 1500 homes in it, my town has over 100k people in it and the next town up has over 1 million people in it, people stopping to help is not a problem, people making the phone call to get the Professionals enroute has been!
I'm sure that I remember a case many years ago where some woman was choking on something or other stuck in her throat. A good Samaritan dived in quickly and applied the Heimlich maneuver and saved her life, but it was done with quite some force (big man-small woman) that she suffered a couple of cracked ribs and internal bruising. And yes, she tried to sue him for assault!!!
I was a St John Ambulance trained first aider and also a Red Cross one, but that was 40 years ago and my certificates are both out of date. You have to regularly update training. Years ago the treatment for burns was to plunge the affected part into cold water, as it was heat that caused the scarring. Nowadays I believe the correct treatment is to wrap the injured part in a sterile dressing to avoid infection.
The only defence for litigious logic is for a paramedic or EMT to state that by the time the accused got there, the patient would have been so far gone that nothing would have made any difference to the eventual outcome. We have the "golden 20 minutes" where if EMS are available it much enhances survival. If only the general public could learn to put people in the recovery position where possible, and stem serious bleeding by pressure pads, before medical help arrives, it would also enhance the survival rate.
In London we have the rapid response emergency vehicles for some time now. They are usually BMW estate cars with a paramedic and most equipment on board, and can get through traffic to a coronary incident maybe 3-4 minutes before the following ambulance. Even that small time scale has been shown to save lives. And we have the London Air Ambulance as well that can airlift patients straight to a major trauma unit. Most British Counties have their own air service now.
It has to be a judgement call, if somebody is clearly dying in front of you then any action is probably better than nothing. Else make sure the Emergency service are on their way and safeguard the patients location until professional help arrives. In the cases of being trapped in a burning car or in a building about to collapse, they will die anyway even if they suffer more injuries getting them to a place of safety. But generally not to move them is best.
Waiting for Godot & salvation :-)
Why do doctors have to practice?
You'd think they'd have got it right by now
Well I was visiting my other half and one of his childhood friends popped in while I was there. His name is also Mike... *pause and look at Mike* no... probably not a relation... anyway... I related something from my day that had disconcerted me and made them wince a bit, and then they fell about laughing.
Their conversation then went along the lines of: "How long has she been in London, Gahl? and "I know Mike, you'd think she'd have learned by now"
Apparently *offended blink* I'm too helpful. It makes me stand out like a sore thumb. Or a biteable head.
I don't see that changing, no people...
It will be my defence ;)
signed: failed Londoner
edit: forgot to say hello. Hello everyone! :)
Please wait here. Further instructions could pile up at any time. Thank you.
I have to say that I see some resemblance in that remark, but I'd rather word it that some people are just far too nice for their own good.
Not a failed Londoner, more a lapsed Cosmopolitan. Or was that Metropolitan? Nah that's a tube line, Neapolitan? nope that's a three colour ice cream brick. Nope as you were.
Waiting for Godot & salvation :-)
Why do doctors have to practice?
You'd think they'd have got it right by now
If you want a good read with a more than droll commentary on legal stones around necks then try Bleak House by Charles Dickens. Yes Dickens and marvellously written. He could have been writing about modern times ! Anyway once you get used to his cadence/idiom etc then it grows on you. The House itself is both an actual one and a metaphor too ..... a rural mansion in drippy Lincolnshire. Likewise the background plot which is the suit of Jarndyce & Jarndyce, a disputed will :
Quote:
Jarndyce and Jarndyce drones on. This scarecrow of a suit has, over the course of time, become so complicated, that no man alive knows what it means. The parties to it understand it least; but it has been observed that no two Chancery lawyers can talk about it for five minutes, without coming to a total disagreement as to all the premises. Innumerable children have been born into the cause; innumerable young people have married into it; innumerable old people have died out of it. Scores of persons have deliriously found themselves made parties in Jarndyce and Jarndyce, without knowing how or why; whole families have inherited legendary hatreds with the suit. The little plaintiff or defendant, who was promised a new rocking-horse when Jarndyce and Jarndyce should be settled, has grown up, possessed himself of a real horse, and trotted away into the other world. Fair wards of court have faded into mothers and grandmothers; a long procession of Chancellors has come in and gone out; the legion of bills in the suit have been transformed into mere bills of mortality; there are not three Jarndyces left upon the earth perhaps, since old Tom Jarndyce in despair blew his brains out at a coffee-house in Chancery Lane; but Jarndyce and Jarndyce still drags its dreary length before the Court, perennially hopeless.
... you get the idea. While poor Charles copped a bit of flak when it was published, it sold very well. Mind you I also quite like Titus Groan ( etc, set at Gormenghast Castle ) by Mervyn Peake ..... :-))
Cheers, Mike.
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
"Mr. Kenge," said Allan, appearing enlightened all in a moment. "Excuse me, our time presses. Do I understand that the whole estate is found to have been absorbed in costs?"
"Hem! I believe so," returned Mr. Kenge. "Mr. Vholes, what do you say?"
"I believe so," said Mr. Vholes.
"And that thus the suit lapses and melts away?"
"Probably," returned Mr. Kenge. "Mr. Vholes?"
"Probably," said Mr. Vholes.
Waiting for Godot & salvation :-)
Why do doctors have to practice?
You'd think they'd have got it right by now
"Mr. Kenge," said Allan, appearing enlightened all in a moment. "Excuse me, our time presses. Do I understand that the whole estate is found to have been absorbed in costs?"
"Hem! I believe so," returned Mr. Kenge. "Mr. Vholes, what do you say?"
"I believe so," said Mr. Vholes.
"And that thus the suit lapses and melts away?"
"Probably," returned Mr. Kenge. "Mr. Vholes?"
"Probably," said Mr. Vholes.
Yep, the young heroes Richard and Ada were the final beneficiaries of an empty pot of gold, though not an entirely happy ending. But far be it for me to be a spoiler to an 1852 novel which has no relevance to current legal practices at all ..... :-)))
Now I've also discovered that one of our local trendy piss-up venuesselect vineyards does have a brass-whatever-rie much beloved of people who should have the bottle shoved up their nose wine connoisseurs from the filthy rich cocaine & ice crews at the stock exchange more discerning Melbourne suburbs.
Don't get me wrong : Moet and Chandon is a classic, it's those that drink it I can't stand.
Cheers, Mike.
( edit ) If you are really into vast & flowing aqueductal sentences then you cannot go past Edward Gibbon in How The Romans Cocked It Right Up The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
RE: .... accused of
Again the litigious logic is close to perfect. When you intervene one of two instances must hold :
- if you weren't trained in first aid, then what were you doing trying ? No escape there.
- if you were trained in first aid, then as the patient died/whatever you must have screwed up. To escape this you have to show that the outcome would be worse without intervention ( the Walk On By outcome ), which is all-nigh impossible if a beyond reasonable doubt test is applied rather than balance of probability. The specificity of most real situations denies sufficiently close analogy to any alternative a court might be gracious to consider ( that's the lesson of recent case law anyway ).
In any event, regardless of final legal endpoints, who in their right mind would be bothered with forced involvement in said legal process ? There's is an enormous downside to even being named in an action .... typically an unrecoverable loss from then on whatever is finalised. Hence the Pay To Go Away strategy which is not unlike pirates of several centuries ago who would plunder but not harshly wound their targets : let them recover for next season's pickings.
Hence this recurses to Atomic Attack Civil Defense Logic : if The Bomb goes off your only defense is to not be there ! :-)
Cheers, Mike.
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
Good morning
Good morning everyone!!!
All this talk about lawsuits etc makes my head hurt, being a paid firefighter for 24 years means I had to help people as part of my job, I never go sued, not once, knock on wood!! BUT I AM in Virginia, USA, and we DO have a very good Good Samaritan Law in effect that essentially says 'if you try in good faith and you are all that there is, you are covered'. There is also NO requirement for you to intervene if you choose not too, BUT once you DO at least attempt to help you CAN NOT then decide to walk away and 'change your mind'. We have had Dr's start helping people who fell down on the sidewalk who then had to give up more than their lunch hour because 'they got involved'. The 'rule' we go by is that the highest level of medical training person MUST stay with the patient, so if someone with no training is 'trying' and a firefighter shows up the original person can leave, but then the firefighter must stay until a paramedic shows up, and they must then stay until a Dr shows up. If a Dr does any helping they MUST stay thru the ride to the hospital though, otherwise the patient could receive a lower level of care and if they died, or got complications, the Dr could be sued out of their license. This usually means most Dr's do NOT intervene, even to say 'do this or don't do that' because 'helping' is a judgement call usually made by a Jury!!
After I retired I decided I would no longer stop at accidents or injuries, BUT I DO make the call to the local Fire Department letting them know someone needs their assistance, or I saw an accident or whatever. I live in a Metropolitan area and there is ALWAYS someone stopping to help, me stopping too can mean traffic comes to a standstill and that can mean even more problems for the emergency folks getting there, so I call instead of stopping. My neighborhood has 1500 homes in it, my town has over 100k people in it and the next town up has over 1 million people in it, people stopping to help is not a problem, people making the phone call to get the Professionals enroute has been!
I'm sure that I remember a
I'm sure that I remember a case many years ago where some woman was choking on something or other stuck in her throat. A good Samaritan dived in quickly and applied the Heimlich maneuver and saved her life, but it was done with quite some force (big man-small woman) that she suffered a couple of cracked ribs and internal bruising. And yes, she tried to sue him for assault!!!
I was a St John Ambulance trained first aider and also a Red Cross one, but that was 40 years ago and my certificates are both out of date. You have to regularly update training. Years ago the treatment for burns was to plunge the affected part into cold water, as it was heat that caused the scarring. Nowadays I believe the correct treatment is to wrap the injured part in a sterile dressing to avoid infection.
The only defence for litigious logic is for a paramedic or EMT to state that by the time the accused got there, the patient would have been so far gone that nothing would have made any difference to the eventual outcome. We have the "golden 20 minutes" where if EMS are available it much enhances survival. If only the general public could learn to put people in the recovery position where possible, and stem serious bleeding by pressure pads, before medical help arrives, it would also enhance the survival rate.
In London we have the rapid response emergency vehicles for some time now. They are usually BMW estate cars with a paramedic and most equipment on board, and can get through traffic to a coronary incident maybe 3-4 minutes before the following ambulance. Even that small time scale has been shown to save lives. And we have the London Air Ambulance as well that can airlift patients straight to a major trauma unit. Most British Counties have their own air service now.
It has to be a judgement call, if somebody is clearly dying in front of you then any action is probably better than nothing. Else make sure the Emergency service are on their way and safeguard the patients location until professional help arrives. In the cases of being trapped in a burning car or in a building about to collapse, they will die anyway even if they suffer more injuries getting them to a place of safety. But generally not to move them is best.
Waiting for Godot & salvation :-)
Why do doctors have to practice?
You'd think they'd have got it right by now
Well I was visiting my other
Well I was visiting my other half and one of his childhood friends popped in while I was there. His name is also Mike... *pause and look at Mike* no... probably not a relation... anyway... I related something from my day that had disconcerted me and made them wince a bit, and then they fell about laughing.
Their conversation then went along the lines of: "How long has she been in London, Gahl? and "I know Mike, you'd think she'd have learned by now"
Apparently *offended blink* I'm too helpful. It makes me stand out like a sore thumb. Or a biteable head.
I don't see that changing, no people...
It will be my defence ;)
signed: failed Londoner
edit: forgot to say hello. Hello everyone! :)
Please wait here. Further instructions could pile up at any time. Thank you.
RE: Apparently *offended
I have to say that I see some resemblance in that remark, but I'd rather word it that some people are just far too nice for their own good.
Not a failed Londoner, more a lapsed Cosmopolitan. Or was that Metropolitan? Nah that's a tube line, Neapolitan? nope that's a three colour ice cream brick. Nope as you were.
Waiting for Godot & salvation :-)
Why do doctors have to practice?
You'd think they'd have got it right by now
If you want a good read with
If you want a good read with a more than droll commentary on legal stones around necks then try Bleak House by Charles Dickens. Yes Dickens and marvellously written. He could have been writing about modern times ! Anyway once you get used to his cadence/idiom etc then it grows on you. The House itself is both an actual one and a metaphor too ..... a rural mansion in drippy Lincolnshire. Likewise the background plot which is the suit of Jarndyce & Jarndyce, a disputed will :
... you get the idea. While poor Charles copped a bit of flak when it was published, it sold very well. Mind you I also quite like Titus Groan ( etc, set at Gormenghast Castle ) by Mervyn Peake ..... :-))
Cheers, Mike.
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
Dickens was not enamoured of
Dickens was not enamoured of Chancery lane!
Waiting for Godot & salvation :-)
Why do doctors have to practice?
You'd think they'd have got it right by now
Good afternoon everyone. :-)
Good afternoon everyone. :-)
TimeLord04
Have TARDIS, will travel...
Come along K-9!
Join SETI Refugees
RE: Dickens was not
Yep, the young heroes Richard and Ada were the final beneficiaries of an empty pot of gold, though not an entirely happy ending. But far be it for me to be a spoiler to an 1852 novel which has no relevance to current legal practices at all ..... :-)))
Now I've also discovered that one of our local
trendy piss-up venuesselect vineyards does have a brass-whatever-rie much beloved ofpeople who should have the bottle shoved up their nosewine connoisseurs from thefilthy rich cocaine & ice crews at the stock exchangemore discerning Melbourne suburbs.Don't get me wrong : Moet and Chandon is a classic, it's those that drink it I can't stand.
Cheers, Mike.
( edit ) If you are really into vast & flowing aqueductal sentences then you cannot go past Edward Gibbon in
How The Romans Cocked It Right UpThe Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
RE: ( edit ) ... The
Doesn't the title pretty much give away the plot?