space exploration/voyaging

obsidian
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Topic 193688

has anyone read anything about the group that did a study about human and robotic exploration of space? they came to a conclusion that there are something like five reasons to do space exploration only one of which requires human presence. that reason being to ensure long term survival of the species by spreading to many other planets. this group also concluded that neither humans nor robots would get much beyond the Solar System separately. humans would have to, in effect, merge with robots and become cybernetic.

Rod
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space exploration/voyaging

As with any prediction of the future, it has to taken with a big grain of salt. Early in the 20th century people were predicting man would not fly.

Tomorrow we might just get hit with a gamma ray burst and all predictions are moot.

Be curious about the future but live for today :-)

edit: My curiosity allows me to read science fiction. An Excellent trilogy on the subject is 'The Golden Age'
by John C. Wright

There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot. - Aldo Leopold

Chipper Q
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RE: has anyone read

Quote:
has anyone read anything about the group that did a study about human and robotic exploration of space? they came to a conclusion that there are something like five reasons to do space exploration only one of which requires human presence. that reason being to ensure long term survival of the species by spreading to many other planets. this group also concluded that neither humans nor robots would get much beyond the Solar System separately. humans would have to, in effect, merge with robots and become cybernetic.


Sounds like a good assessment to me, did you read it somewhere on the web? There has always been a lot we couldn't do without the necessary tools, and we can always do a lot better still as the tools are improved and made available. I'm guessing the key to making it much past the solar system is discovering the physics to do it in a timely fashion, more so than in having computers with advanced sensors and appendages (robotic tools), although when you consider theories on evolution, there are lots of scenarios and possibilities (for example, see The Future of Evolution)....

Rod
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RE: [snip] although when

Message 81891 in response to message 81890

Quote:

[snip]
although when you consider theories on evolution, there are lots of scenarios and possibilities (for example, see The Future of Evolution)....

Wait until all those nanomachines we plan on building start to get into every crack and crevice... Just Watch...:-) The Singularity is Near :-)

There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot. - Aldo Leopold

Chipper Q
Chipper Q
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RE: RE: [snip] although

Message 81892 in response to message 81891

Quote:
Quote:

[snip]
although when you consider theories on evolution, there are lots of scenarios and possibilities (for example, see The Future of Evolution)....

Wait until all those nanomachines we plan on building start to get into every crack and crevice... Just Watch...:-) The Singularity is Near :-)


Hmm..., why the thousand-dollar price tag on the supercomputer of 2045? Of all the times Captain Picard ordered, “Tea, Earl Grey� from the replicator, he never once had to put a quarter in any slot! And not quite soon enough for me, the predecessors of that sci-fi replicator are already available for download. One is the Fab@Home and another is the RepRap. The motto of the RepRap is “wealth without money� but as far as I can see, it's all about the quality of life for everyone. As long as no aliens come along and trick us into paying for the sunshine, I think we'll all be fine :)

Although those machines are still quite rudimentary, it's easy enough to outfit them with some current ink-jet cartridge technology to make some incredibly miniature devices (e.g. multi-layered circuit boards, and not just electric circuits but optical ones too, not to mention integrating whatever circuits with mechanical assemblies in the same package). Heck, slap some piezoelectric actuators on the ink-jet carriage (that holds the cartridges) and then (with a proper tip) you'd be well on the way to working on nano-scale projects...

By the time I assemble/acquire something like that, it wouldn't surprise me if there will already be tutorials/designs for the 3D-printing of some type of quantum mechanical gravitational wave sensors, hopefully augmenting the observations of the Advanced LIGOs - time will tell, more and more with each day :)

And speaking of exploration and voyages, wishing all the best to the Phoenix Mars Lander team (scheduled for landing this Sunday), hoping they get their feet wet! Hard to believe it takes over 15 minutes for the transmissions to travel (at the speed of light) all the way back here...

tullio
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Two great launches by NASA in

Two great launches by NASA in a few days, the GLAST gamma ray observatory and the OSTM/Jason-2 satellite to monitor the oceans. One must give credits to NASA for its good work. I admire those people working in the interest of science.
Tullio

Bikeman (Heinz-Bernd Eggenstein)
Bikeman (Heinz-...
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On a lighter note...here's

On a lighter note...here's the truth about the Phoenix mission:

http://www.stevethecat.com/mars.htm

:-)
CU
Bikeman

Chipper Q
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RE: On a lighter

Message 81895 in response to message 81894

Quote:

On a lighter note...here's the truth about the Phoenix mission:

http://www.stevethecat.com/mars.htm


lol – good going for Steve! Aside from the curiosity of cats being one of the driving forces in space exploration, there's also the 9-lives factor. Case in point, Stray Cat Earl Patches (thumbnail link to picture below) who's now down to 8 lives after being aboard the ill-fated Mars Climate Orbiter and barely making it back to Earth safely. The official story was that there was a mismatch of distance units in the navigational control software, but the look on Earl's face and smoked-down-to-the-filter cigarette tells a different story: the Feline Life Support Pod (FLSP) inexplicably jettisoned during the critical orbital insertion maneuver, causing Climate Orbiter to veer off course, subsequently overheating the spacecraft's propulsion system while it attempted to recover. “The hatch just blew and the pod jettisoned, I don't know what happened,� laments the retired astrocat. Earl never meows at anyone these days, and as near as I can tell spends most of his time transporting sand fleas back and forth from the beach...

(Click thumbnail for full sized image)

Holly-Marie
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RE: this group also

Quote:
this group also concluded that neither humans nor robots would get much beyond the Solar System separately. humans would have to, in effect, merge with robots and become cybernetic.

... and why exactly is that?

I mean I recognize that a cyborg would have advantages over both humans and robots but why is it the only way?

Most such claims take for granted that we can never move faster than light and that generation space crafts are the only way for interstellar space travel.
I'm not ready to accept that unless someone can really prove it. Nearly none of our so called natural laws are proofen if that will ever be possible. They just fit our observations and we do not understand a whole lot yet.
Even if that is true for our normal 4 dimensional space-time we have no idea what possibilities additional dimensions (if they exist) will enable.
History has shown that we thought how things are quite a few times already and so far we never were 100% right.

The current base of modern physics is patchwork with big holes in it. Who knows if we will not have to undo some of the patches and fit others in place?

Another main problem standing in our way is having a propulsion system that does not rely on impulse as all currently working ones do. Any impulse driven propulsion system needs something that is accelerated in the opposite direction of travel and "thrown away". This how ever means it has to be transported first till it is needed and so add to the total mass that needs to be accelerated.

For more on that subject see this NASA site: Warp Drive, When?. (Sadly it has not been update much in the last years.)

So far only the idea of the warp drive seems to hold any promise of solving that issue if it was not for the small detail of needing a medium black hole that you can switch on and of to bent space as needed and a few other issues where it is unclear of now if they can be solved.

However knowing what gravity really is might enable us to build devices to manipulate space in such a way.

Since a ship with a warp drive is not actually moving through space (at least as I understand it) but space instead is moved past the ship, passengers should not even feel any acceleration at all. I know in Star Trek that is not the case and they uses some kind of dampeners to counter the effects of strong acceleration. Still if we can create such gravitation forces in one way why not something to counter it for the passengers. In any case we do not really know how space-time behaves under such conditions any way. It may be much simpler than we think or much more complicated

That leaves the question of how to power something like that.

The answer to that could be Zero-Point-Energy.
Tesla was already on that track 100 year's ago but was silenced and made forgotten by those who wheal the economical power of the world for fear what the loss of control over energy would mean. (The wars for oil would not be needed at least not because its needed for energy. This again would mean less profit in war industries...)
Today there are quite a few scientists who claim they build devices that seem to tap into Zero-Point-Energy. (put out more power than they consume) Some can show working devices but are denied patents and scientific recognition since the "real" scientists see such devices as perpetual mobiles and therefore against science. However if they really do tap into Zero-Point-Energy they would just transform that energy in a form useful to us. That is no different than burning fuel to convert chemical into kinetic energy. However it still needs to be assessed what drawing Zero-Point-energy on a larger scale would mean for space-time and the universe.
Then again if we messed up with that and there are other civilizations in the universe they may come and lecture us not to play with fire till we are old enough and so it would force them to make first contact... - ... or they could just wipe us out to solve the problem for good.
Then again a cubic centimeter of vacuum is supposed to contain more energy than the whole currently observable universe combined I heard in one place and NASA says at least a cup of vacuum contains enough energy to boil away earth oceans. So its not as if we could use it up any time soon unless we would create a gigantic white hole (if there is such a thing). However it is a concern that needs to be addressed seriously.

Even if this is not the way to go it shows that there may be a lot of ideas yet to be found to solve space travel.

Look at the space elevator. It may be reality in 20 years or so and who would have believed that 10 or 20 years ago? Once it is working it would push space exploration into a way higher gear. After reading through the page it seems a launch loop is an even better option that we could already build if some one gave he money.

The application of knowing what gravity is and how it works in space exploration is the driving force for me to crunch for this project. However it would also change a lot of things on earth.

So I'm curious what the future will bring but I would love to be able to go into space in my lifetime.

Knowledge is a polite word for dead but not buried imagination.
E. E. Cummings

Give everyone the benefit of the doubt
because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Erin from BigCloset-Topshelf?

Rod
Rod
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The speed of light is

The speed of light is absolute in this universe... I think for us to get around this if possible, in both in theory and engineering is centuries away...

For the near term I think people will pursue robotic attachments to enhance our abilities. It already to beginning to start with new advances artificial limbs for the disabled.. implanted microprocessors to help people with parkinson disease.

We only started scratching the surface...

There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot. - Aldo Leopold

Holly-Marie
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I'm aware of that. I still do

I'm aware of that.
I still do not see why cyborgs are the only way to leave the solar system.
They may represent the best way but the only one like is suggested?

Knowledge is a polite word for dead but not buried imagination.
E. E. Cummings

Give everyone the benefit of the doubt
because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Erin from BigCloset-Topshelf?

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