Omar Khayyam ......
7 Sep 2005 15:33:03 UTC
Topic 189850
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Just a break for my scientist friends, some versets of Omar Khayyam , astronomer and mathematician of 10th century : "Myself when young did eagerly frequent Doctor and Saint, and heard great Argument about it and about : but evermore came out by the same Door as in I went ." / " Up from Earth's Center through the Seventh Gate I rose,
and on the Throne of Saturn sat , And many Knots
unravel'd by the Road ; But not the Knot of Human Death and Fate ." / " Then to the rolling Heav'n I
cried, Asking " What Lamp had Destiny to guide Her little Children stumbling in the Dark?" And - "A blind Understanding !" Heav'n replied ." / "For in and out,above,about,below ,is nothing but a Magic Shadow-show,Play'd in a Box whose Candle is the Sun, Round which we Phantom Figures come and go ." /" Tis all a Chequer-board of Nights and Days Where Destiny with Men for Pieces plays; Hither and thither moves, and mates , and slays And one by one back in the Closet lays." / "Ah,Love ! could thou and I with Fate conspire To grasp this sorry Scheme of Things entire,Would not we shatter it to bits- and then Re-mould it nearer to the Heart's Desire ? " / "For in the Market-place,one Dusk of Day , I watch'd the Potter thumping his Wet Clay : And with its all obliterated Tongue It murmu'd - "Gently , Brother, gently ,pray !" / "The Ball no Question makes of Ayes and Noes, But Right or Left as strikes the Player goes; And He that toss'd Thee down into the Field, He knows about it all- He knows- HE knows ! " /"Think , in this batter'd Caravanserai Whose Doorways are alternate Night and Day, How Caesar after Caesar with his Pomp Abode his Hour or two, and went his way ." .........
Ariane
Omar Khayyam ......
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Thanks for sharing that, Ariane. I find it particularly appealing since rhyme and meter are preserved in the translation from one language to another. Is this, in fact true? Does the same pattern of rhyme and meter exist in the language that the piece was written in?
RE: Thanks for sharing
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Oh Chipper, you are very clever !
I will post my reply later .
Ariane
RE: Thanks for sharing
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Chipper, of course the rules governing the persian poetry are very strict, perhaps like in all other poetry in all languages.Anyway these rules are as strict as mathematics rules, so i think,poetry,music and mathematic pertain to the same family. This translation of Omar Khayyam is a very old one, performed by E.Fitzgerald, himself an english poet. But you know, in translation, normally the "soul" of poems is lost, because concepts in different culture and civilization diverge . Fitzgerald has used in his translation, concepts perceptible for western mentality , and obviously they are too far from the original concepts used by Omar Khayyam. It should exist today some good and accurate translations of Omar Khayyam, but they would always never reflect the original thoughts and their connotations in eastern mentality. It is not a question of learning a foreign language which would permit to understand the "soul" and all the concepts , it is a question of being born in a language or not. Rhyme, meter and musicality in persian poetry are something amazing if not unique.
Ariane
Several weeks ago when this
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Several weeks ago when this thread first started, I saw a thread starter whose name I didn't recognise, a thread topic which made me wince, and a thread first line which made me mutter to myself, "Oh no, not another fruit loop wanting to spam the boards with utter tripe .... Let's back out quickly and hope it sinks out of sight before anyone else is silly enough to reply".
For a while my wish was granted and then Chipper (a recognisable science board celebrity :).) came along and resurrected it. I thought to myself, "Now why the hell did he do that - doesn't he realise that he is simply encouraging her!!". I think that was about the time that Ariane was complaining in another thread that her computer was too weak to ever do anything. I remember admonishing her with a comment starting with the word "Rubbish!!" or something like that. I must admit at that time I pictured her as some whining fruit loop wanting to hijack the thread and complain about something she could easily fix if she really wanted to. I certainly didn't understand the real story of struggling in a technology poor Tehran.
However, I did recognise Omar Khayyam and had a vague recollection of learning about the Rubaiyat way back in my schooldays in a non-technological era when some value was put on Literature and the Classics. I actually studied French and Latin for a couple of years and my Headmaster was heartbroken when I told him that I was dropping Latin in favour of more technological subjects like Physics, Chemistry and Mathematics. Up until that time I had been top of the (very small) class for Latin. I think my Headmaster saw me as having a future in the Classics, whereas I certainly didn't :).
In deciding whether or not to try to help Ariane upgrade her computer, I had a bit of a closer look at things she had written and decided to go and look up a bit about good old Omar. I was surprised to find the following statement about him:-
So there you go .... He was a scientist after all and not just a "stringer together of fancy words ..." :).
I noticed Ariane commenting on the FitzGerald translations ... Here is one I found very easily which has an astronomical connection ... A very vivid picture of a sunrise as only good old Omar (no doubt with Fitzy's help) could do it.
In fact I was interested to read this quote about FitzGerald:-
Having read that, I now better understand the conversation earlier in this thread. So now I know that Ariane isn't really a "fruit loop" - well no more than any of us are anyway!! :).
Cheers,
Gary.
RE: Several weeks ago when
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GARY ! Extremely Interesting What You Posted ! Thanks a Lot !
Cheers
Ariane
Dear Gary ! Some Latin and
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Dear Gary ! Some Latin and french lesson !
I found a quote from Manilius in the book of Essais of Montaigne :
Chapitre XLVII , live 1 des Essais , " De l'incertitude de notre jugement" :
"Et male consultis pretium est : prudentia fallax,
Nec fortuna probat causas sequiturque merentes ;
Sed vaga per cunctos nullo discrimine fertur;
Scilicet est aliud quod nos cogatque regatque
Majus,et in proprias ducat mortalia leges."
Cheers
Ariane
RE: Dear Gary !
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Ariane,
The latin I learned 45 years ago is long gone. I recognise Sed (but) simply because "Non modo sed etiam" ... but the rest is double dutch :).
All I can remember (I think) is the very first latin I ever learned ...
amo amas amat amamus amatis amant
amabo amabas amabat amabamus amabatis amabant
...
and it continued on with much more complex forms that I very vaguely remember.
We learned it off by heart - parrot fashion - and for some reason it just rises to the surface once again :). You can correct me if I got any of that wrong!!!
I know you are skilled in many languages - your native tongue I presume is Dutch and the others would be French, German, English, Farsi, Latin, probably Greek as well and probably a whole raft of other European and middle eastern languages.
My sole claim to communication is English ... I'm a dullard ... :).
Cheers,
Gary.
RE: Several weeks ago when
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I must admit, that I went through a simular kind of transformation as Gary. Sorry, for this, Ariane!
Und die besten Grüsse aus Deutschland nach Teheran(?)
Es gr
RE: RE: Dear Gary
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(LOL)+(rolling on the floor) = don't worry dear Gary for the Latin, just
amo, amas, amat is largely enough, you have already with that your PhD.
I will send later the traduction of Manilius .
Cheers
Ariane
RE: RE: Several weeks ago
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Vielen Danke ! Liebe Oliver, es ist sehr freundlich !
Auch Besten Grusse aus Tehran nach Deutschland !
Ariane