Gravitational Waves

gb
gb
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Topic 193527

From reading www.einetein-online.info/en/elementary/gravWav/index.html I understand that gravitational waves will have been detected when we observe transverse fluctuations occurring in the shape of atoms. It seems these will be caused by distant objects such as pulsars and black holes. Why don't the gravitons we receive from the moon give rise to these same fluctuations?
GB

Chipper Q
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Gravitational Waves

Quote:
From reading www.einetein-online.info/en/elementary/gravWav/index.html I understand that gravitational waves will have been detected when we observe transverse fluctuations occurring in the shape of atoms. It seems these will be caused by distant objects such as pulsars and black holes. Why don't the gravitons we receive from the moon give rise to these same fluctuations?
GB

The following quote is from the section called “Gravitational wave astronomy�:

Quote:
However, even gravitational waves produced in the most violent commotions in our cosmic neighbourhood are very weak indeed, once they've reached earth. True, a supernova explosion in a nearby galaxy will produce, within the first few seconds, the energy of a trillion sextillion nuclear explosions, with much of that energy radiated away in the form of gravitational waves - but on its way to earth, all that energy dilutes to a pitiful remnant wave, changing the distance between the earth and the sun by the diameter of a hydrogen atom, at best. This makes the detection of gravitational waves a supremely difficult technical endeavor.


So in the effort to detect gravitational waves, it's not about detecting gravitons or the fluctuation in size of an individual atom – it's about trying to detect a very small change in a huge distance, for example with the distance of 93 million miles (from here to the sun) changing by an amount that's no bigger than the size of a hydrogen atom.

Hence, the tools being used to detect such a small warp in space-time metric are interferometers (like those providing the data that we're all crunching in Einstein@Home), and resonant bar detectors (where the small warp would cause a corresponding change in the resonance of the solid bar)...

tullio
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What we are looking for is a

What we are looking for is a small needle in a big haystack.
Tullio

rbpeake
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RE: What we are looking for

Message 79470 in response to message 79469

Quote:
What we are looking for is a small needle in a big haystack.
Tullio


It is such a very very small needle that I am constantly amazed that we have the technology to [potentially] find it! :)

tullio
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Yes, but I see a danger in

Yes, but I see a danger in physics becoming too dependent on technology. LHC is awesome. We need some new ideas.
Tullio

Ernesto Solis
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RE: RE: From reading

Message 79472 in response to message 79468

Quote:
Quote:
From reading www.einetein-online.info/en/elementary/gravWav/index.html I understand that gravitational waves will have been detected when we observe transverse fluctuations occurring in the shape of atoms. It seems these will be caused by distant objects such as pulsars and black holes. Why don't the gravitons we receive from the moon give rise to these same fluctuations?
GB

The following quote is from the section called “Gravitational wave astronomy�:

Quote:
However, even gravitational waves produced in the most violent commotions in our cosmic neighbourhood are very weak indeed, once they've reached earth. True, a supernova explosion in a nearby galaxy will produce, within the first few seconds, the energy of a trillion sextillion nuclear explosions, with much of that energy radiated away in the form of gravitational waves - but on its way to earth, all that energy dilutes to a pitiful remnant wave, changing the distance between the earth and the sun by the diameter of a hydrogen atom, at best. This makes the detection of gravitational waves a supremely difficult technical endeavor.

So in the effort to detect gravitational waves, it's not about detecting gravitons or the fluctuation in size of an individual atom – it's about trying to detect a very small change in a huge distance, for example with the distance of 93 million miles (from here to the sun) changing by an amount that's no bigger than the size of a hydrogen atom.

Hence, the tools being used to detect such a small warp in space-time metric are interferometers (like those providing the data that we're all crunching in Einstein@Home), and resonant bar detectors (where the small warp would cause a corresponding change in the resonance of the solid bar)...


Hi Chipper, long time no say hi........
Those new idea's that Tullio is talking about, can they be developed on earth or do we have to take it into space?
What are the differences if the LHC was in orbit around the earth or moon?

thanks
Mr. Rookie
Ernie S.

tullio
tullio
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The Columbus laboratory just

The Columbus laboratory just installed by a Shuttle mission on the International Space Station is too small to host a LHC monster, but can give room to 12 experimental apparatuses. My question is: who will ferry the scientists up and down once the Shuttles are retired from flight in 2010?
It has already cost us Europeans 800 million euros plus the cost of the Shuttle mission, 500 million euros. Is it a white elephant?
Tullio

Ernesto Solis
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RE: The Columbus laboratory

Message 79474 in response to message 79473

Quote:
The Columbus laboratory just installed by a Shuttle mission on the International Space Station is too small to host a LHC monster, but can give room to 12 experimental apparatuses. My question is: who will ferry the scientists up and down once the Shuttles are retired from flight in 2010?
It has already cost us Europeans 800 million euros plus the cost of the Shuttle mission, 500 million euros. Is it a white elephant?
Tullio

Tullio,
thanks for the response,
What do you know about the 12 experimental apparatuses?
Im sure NASA has something up thier sleeves before Burt Rutan (of Dinuba CA.)
over takes them.:-)
Ernie
Team Art Bell

tullio
tullio
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I would suggest this article

I would suggest this article on Columbus
Columbus
Tullio

Bikeman (Heinz-Bernd Eggenstein)
Bikeman (Heinz-...
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RE: My question is: who

Message 79476 in response to message 79473

Quote:
My question is: who will ferry the scientists up and down once the Shuttles are retired from flight in 2010?

As incredible as it may sound, NASA will not have a capability of its own for manned space-flight at least from 2010 to 2014. It will have to depend on Russian launch vehicles or any private companies that might offer manned space-flight until then. Given that it takes some time to develop, test, and certify a human-rated crew transportation system, there is no way around this other than reversing the decision to retire the Space Shuttle fleet in 2010, which seems unlikely.

CU
Bikeman

tullio
tullio
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RE: RE: My question is:

Message 79477 in response to message 79476

Quote:
Quote:
My question is: who will ferry the scientists up and down once the Shuttles are retired from flight in 2010?

As incredible as it may sound, NASA will not have a capability of its own for manned space-flight at least from 2010 to 2014. It will have to depend on Russian launch vehicles or any private companies that might offer manned space-flight until then. Given that it takes some time to develop, test, and certify a human-rated crew transportation system, there is no way around this other than reversing the decision to retire the Space Shuttle fleet in 2010, which seems unlikely.

CU
Bikeman


Europe has built a heavy launcher, the Ariane V. If ESA wants to maintain its role in space science it should consider building and testing a crew module, perhaps a modernized Soyuz craft with Russia's help. An automated cargo craft is already on the launching pad, the Automated Transfer Vehicle.
Tullio

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