From what I gather is, that it seems to be unfair for home users being matched up with the cluster computers. I do understand the frustration of my fellow team members having put in a heck of a lot of machines, hard work and a lot of determination only for a cluster to relegate them to second in no time ...
bl?d brot,
Thank you for introducing the team comcept to this question. It seems to me that the team is the place to express the competitive side of our nature. In this microcosm, things are much more on a scale to make competition practical, and fun! Really, the project in whole is a poor, hopeless place to aspire to be first (or 100th, for that matter) except for the extremely few. The project has very limited resources to go spending them to implement class-defined levels of "fair" competition, and many more important problems to address. Some of us forget or don't know in the first place that project resources are extremely limited amd entirely dependent upon donations, for which no small amount of time and effort must be spent just in assembling and writing funding proposals to remain "alive" from month to month. The team, otoh, is an excellent venue for this, on a manageable scale, and customizable enough to tailor it to their wishes. There, we have a much more realistic chance to engage in friendly competition with some chance of success. Classes can be set up, etc. Please, ask no more of a project with threadbare resources than to give us a functional framework to contribute to a meaningful scientific endeavor. Sometimes that in itself is a tough enough burden.
Respects,
Michael R.
microcraft
"The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice" - MLK
Am I looking at another contribution vs credit thingy...?
Cause if it does, maybe I'm starting to regret joining this project.
Elphidieus,
I'm quite sure that you can find some way to ignore it - no use getting your emotions dragged into it. I'm not saying it'll go away - there is a part of human nature which thrives on this stuff. Just ignore it... :-)
Respects,
Michael R.
microcraft
"The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice" - MLK
From what I gather is, that it seems to be unfair for home users being matched up with the cluster computers. I do understand the frustration of my fellow team members having put in a heck of a lot of machines, hard work and a lot of determination only for a cluster to relegate them to second in no time ...
bl?d brot,
Thank you for introducing the team comcept to this question. It seems to me that the team is the place to express the competitive side of our nature. In this microcosm, things are much more on a scale to make competition practical, and fun! Really, the project in whole is a poor, hopeless place to aspire to be first (or 100th, for that matter) except for the extremely few. The project has very limited resources to go spending them to implement class-defined levels of "fair" competition, and many more important problems to address. Some of us forget or don't know in the first place that project resources are extremely limited amd entirely dependent upon donations, for which no small amount of time and effort must be spent just in assembling and writing funding proposals to remain "alive" from month to month. The team, otoh, is an excellent venue for this, on a manageable scale, and customizable enough to tailor it to their wishes. There, we have a much more realistic chance to engage in friendly competition with some chance of success. Classes can be set up, etc. Please, ask no more of a project with threadbare resources than to give us a functional framework to contribute to a meaningful scientific endeavor. Sometimes that in itself is a tough enough burden.
Respects,
Michael R.
microcraft
"The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice" - MLK
I clearly understand, that there are many of you who do not care about the credits at all. Others instead do care about it, joining teams and competing for ranking results. Obviously, I am among this second group.
I actually didn't want to start a discussion about why anybody joined the project or what benefits he receives from participating. I just wanted to point at the properly working credit system, that IS THERE for some reason. Why? Because people CARE about credits and want their contributions be compared. Thats their motivation to stay tuned to the project. The credits cannot be swapped into money nor anything else, they are only there for MOTIVATION. If one doesn't care about credits, he does not need to form a team with others nor to take a look at the stats pages. There IS a way of participating WITHOUT competing.
But at a certain point someone has decided not only to let the Beowulf cluster crunch workunits, but to CLAIM CREDITS for its outcome ant to ADD IT TO A TEAM. The only reason to join a team is to compete with others. The contributions of the cluster computer would NOT AT ALL be of less value if it was not in the team. And thats the point: It's no fair competition anymore if someone with a million dollar budget puts a giant cluster computer into the race.
Okay, that what I wanted to talk about. The million dollar cluster competing with home computer users. Nothing else.
Am I looking at another contribution vs credit thingy...?
Cause if it does, maybe I'm starting to regret joining this project.
Elphidieus,
I'm quite sure that you can find some way to ignore it - no use getting your emotions dragged into it. I'm not saying it'll go away - there is a part of human nature which thrives on this stuff. Just ignore it... :-)
Respects,
Michael R.
Hi Michael...,
In fact I did. From Loxami's point of view, I'm teamless right now. No competition whatsoever. It's just a little home computer crunching for science....
The other things that I'm thriving on are optimization and efficiency...
Classes can be set up, etc. Please, ask no more of a project with threadbare resources than to give us a functional framework to contribute to a meaningful scientific endeavor. Sometimes that in itself is a tough enough burden.
Respects,
Michael R.
Being involved in scientific research and the academic world myself, I only can too well emphasize how tough things can be. Yet, I also can only too well understand the various points of view about the effects of the decisions taken by the project board. Some participants concur, some reject it.
Even if resources are scare, however, I think foremost and most essentially is communication allowing participants to understand decision and measures taken. Think how nice it would have been by the project board to celebrate the installation of the new BEO Wulf cluster and that Einstein was chosen as the burn in application. Everybody could have cheered.
Now, for some this looked like sneaking in from behind because they do not have the chance to understand why things develop. Not knowing leaves room for anxiety. Maybe a more frequent communication initiation from the project board would allow a stronger community to form, too, besides the "team sport".
I must admit that I feel a bit bored by the "news" on the main site, since it has become a tech log for downtime. How cool would the news about the BEO Wulf cluster been with some data facts quickly summarising the likely impact it may have?
At the moment I somehow can't help the fact but hearing a massage along the lines of "C'mon we already said thank you for your contribution; now go back crunching cos if you don't like it you are free to leave any time".
You talk about scarce ressources and donation; well, we all are donars and we are not entitled to anything. We do not take money, we do not cost money, but just like a flower we would appreciate a sound amount of attention.
I guess, the project board sometimes is unaware of the necessity to communicate so not to get their "donars" up the wall. ;-) I know that Mr. Allen must be well busy, but sure somebody else could communicate stuff. There could be not only a forum administrator like Mike Hewson but also a community administrator channeling the views, ideas, improvements and so on on a volunteer basis; heck, maybe they could even integrate the required code - for free. We all are here because we would like to contribute, and like to receive recognition for our contribution. That's all we ask for, I guess. I wouldn't cost money, we do it free of charge. All it takes is a decision by the project board.
Kind regards
Soenke
:
your thoughts - the ways :: the knowledge - your space
:
Arrgggh, it's the old chestnut ag'in Guv'ner.... :-)
T'was even more heat than light this time, Sire!
Could we but use the power thusly generated.....
and so vouchsafe a vast reservoir for the common weal?
Alas not, for frittered and twittered away to nought
'cos I couldn't find a Maxwell's Demon in time!
( with apologies to Mr C.Dickens )
Speaking of Credit and Competition:
When the waves are found, which won't be long, the whole world will be crawling over this site ( much more than now ). Who then wants to look the fool in such a radiant glare? That's a race I'd be happy to lose. Hence I suggest we keep it all 'ego-bland & vanilla-blend' for that day .... eh, Ladies and Gentlemen? :-)
Cheers, Mike.
( Obtuse? Well, I could have simply said "There's no 'I' in team" or somesuch - but see my signature ... )
( edit ) Hey, don't you just learn something new each day! I just Googled 'Schwanzvergleich' and translated to get 'Tail comparison'.... hmmmm I just wonder if it has other connotations :-)
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
( Obtuse? Well, I could have simply said "There's no 'I' in team" or somesuch - but see my signature ... )
Unfortunately, there is no such saying in German. I wish there would be... Afterall the primary reason is to get the gravitational wave; everything else is second.
Cheers
:
your thoughts - the ways :: the knowledge - your space
:
RE: From what I gather is,
)
bl?d brot,
Thank you for introducing the team comcept to this question. It seems to me that the team is the place to express the competitive side of our nature. In this microcosm, things are much more on a scale to make competition practical, and fun! Really, the project in whole is a poor, hopeless place to aspire to be first (or 100th, for that matter) except for the extremely few. The project has very limited resources to go spending them to implement class-defined levels of "fair" competition, and many more important problems to address. Some of us forget or don't know in the first place that project resources are extremely limited amd entirely dependent upon donations, for which no small amount of time and effort must be spent just in assembling and writing funding proposals to remain "alive" from month to month. The team, otoh, is an excellent venue for this, on a manageable scale, and customizable enough to tailor it to their wishes. There, we have a much more realistic chance to engage in friendly competition with some chance of success. Classes can be set up, etc. Please, ask no more of a project with threadbare resources than to give us a functional framework to contribute to a meaningful scientific endeavor. Sometimes that in itself is a tough enough burden.
Respects,
Michael R.
microcraft
"The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice" - MLK
RE: Am I looking at another
)
Elphidieus,
I'm quite sure that you can find some way to ignore it - no use getting your emotions dragged into it. I'm not saying it'll go away - there is a part of human nature which thrives on this stuff. Just ignore it... :-)
Respects,
Michael R.
microcraft
"The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice" - MLK
RE: From what I gather is,
)
bl?d brot,
Thank you for introducing the team comcept to this question. It seems to me that the team is the place to express the competitive side of our nature. In this microcosm, things are much more on a scale to make competition practical, and fun! Really, the project in whole is a poor, hopeless place to aspire to be first (or 100th, for that matter) except for the extremely few. The project has very limited resources to go spending them to implement class-defined levels of "fair" competition, and many more important problems to address. Some of us forget or don't know in the first place that project resources are extremely limited amd entirely dependent upon donations, for which no small amount of time and effort must be spent just in assembling and writing funding proposals to remain "alive" from month to month. The team, otoh, is an excellent venue for this, on a manageable scale, and customizable enough to tailor it to their wishes. There, we have a much more realistic chance to engage in friendly competition with some chance of success. Classes can be set up, etc. Please, ask no more of a project with threadbare resources than to give us a functional framework to contribute to a meaningful scientific endeavor. Sometimes that in itself is a tough enough burden.
Respects,
Michael R.
microcraft
"The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice" - MLK
Okay, let me add a few
)
Okay, let me add a few words.
I clearly understand, that there are many of you who do not care about the credits at all. Others instead do care about it, joining teams and competing for ranking results. Obviously, I am among this second group.
I actually didn't want to start a discussion about why anybody joined the project or what benefits he receives from participating. I just wanted to point at the properly working credit system, that IS THERE for some reason. Why? Because people CARE about credits and want their contributions be compared. Thats their motivation to stay tuned to the project. The credits cannot be swapped into money nor anything else, they are only there for MOTIVATION. If one doesn't care about credits, he does not need to form a team with others nor to take a look at the stats pages. There IS a way of participating WITHOUT competing.
But at a certain point someone has decided not only to let the Beowulf cluster crunch workunits, but to CLAIM CREDITS for its outcome ant to ADD IT TO A TEAM. The only reason to join a team is to compete with others. The contributions of the cluster computer would NOT AT ALL be of less value if it was not in the team. And thats the point: It's no fair competition anymore if someone with a million dollar budget puts a giant cluster computer into the race.
Okay, that what I wanted to talk about. The million dollar cluster competing with home computer users. Nothing else.
--lox
RE: RE: Am I looking at
)
Hi Michael...,
In fact I did. From Loxami's point of view, I'm teamless right now. No competition whatsoever. It's just a little home computer crunching for science....
The other things that I'm thriving on are optimization and efficiency...
Eith....
RE: Classes can be set up,
)
Being involved in scientific research and the academic world myself, I only can too well emphasize how tough things can be. Yet, I also can only too well understand the various points of view about the effects of the decisions taken by the project board. Some participants concur, some reject it.
Even if resources are scare, however, I think foremost and most essentially is communication allowing participants to understand decision and measures taken. Think how nice it would have been by the project board to celebrate the installation of the new BEO Wulf cluster and that Einstein was chosen as the burn in application. Everybody could have cheered.
Now, for some this looked like sneaking in from behind because they do not have the chance to understand why things develop. Not knowing leaves room for anxiety. Maybe a more frequent communication initiation from the project board would allow a stronger community to form, too, besides the "team sport".
I must admit that I feel a bit bored by the "news" on the main site, since it has become a tech log for downtime. How cool would the news about the BEO Wulf cluster been with some data facts quickly summarising the likely impact it may have?
At the moment I somehow can't help the fact but hearing a massage along the lines of "C'mon we already said thank you for your contribution; now go back crunching cos if you don't like it you are free to leave any time".
You talk about scarce ressources and donation; well, we all are donars and we are not entitled to anything. We do not take money, we do not cost money, but just like a flower we would appreciate a sound amount of attention.
I guess, the project board sometimes is unaware of the necessity to communicate so not to get their "donars" up the wall. ;-) I know that Mr. Allen must be well busy, but sure somebody else could communicate stuff. There could be not only a forum administrator like Mike Hewson but also a community administrator channeling the views, ideas, improvements and so on on a volunteer basis; heck, maybe they could even integrate the required code - for free. We all are here because we would like to contribute, and like to receive recognition for our contribution. That's all we ask for, I guess. I wouldn't cost money, we do it free of charge. All it takes is a decision by the project board.
Kind regards
Soenke
:
your thoughts - the ways :: the knowledge - your space
:
I'm curious. What's the RAC
)
I'm curious. What's the RAC on that cluster? Thanks.
Founder of BOINC group, Objectivists, a group of philosophically minded rational data crunchers.
RE: I'm curious. What's
)
As each single node is listed separately, take this as the RAC: 146500 - more than any other computer, user or even team.
--lox
Arrgggh, it's the old
)
Arrgggh, it's the old chestnut ag'in Guv'ner.... :-)
T'was even more heat than light this time, Sire!
Could we but use the power thusly generated.....
and so vouchsafe a vast reservoir for the common weal?
Alas not, for frittered and twittered away to nought
'cos I couldn't find a Maxwell's Demon in time!
( with apologies to Mr C.Dickens )
Speaking of Credit and Competition:
When the waves are found, which won't be long, the whole world will be crawling over this site ( much more than now ). Who then wants to look the fool in such a radiant glare? That's a race I'd be happy to lose. Hence I suggest we keep it all 'ego-bland & vanilla-blend' for that day .... eh, Ladies and Gentlemen? :-)
Cheers, Mike.
( Obtuse? Well, I could have simply said "There's no 'I' in team" or somesuch - but see my signature ... )
( edit ) Hey, don't you just learn something new each day! I just Googled 'Schwanzvergleich' and translated to get 'Tail comparison'.... hmmmm I just wonder if it has other connotations :-)
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
RE: ( Obtuse? Well, I could
)
Unfortunately, there is no such saying in German. I wish there would be... Afterall the primary reason is to get the gravitational wave; everything else is second.
Cheers
:
your thoughts - the ways :: the knowledge - your space
: