Were you not one of those telling me how perfectly BOINC works if you just leave it alone?
If you are not careful you will have lots of people calling you a whiner and someone that does not understand how well BOINC works, if you just ignore all those "little" things that might indicate that it does not ...
Somehow me thinks there is a compliment in there somewhere. Must have been body language!
Generally speaking, you are correct. I have mentioned elsewhere to leave it alone to let BOINC work out the problems. But that only goes so far. If BOINC has a built in problem, that is quite another matter.
At least I know I'm in good company. :0)
It doesn't bother me at all that BOINC has its kinks that need to get worked out, but it does make me wonder on occasion that a number of chronic "smaller" issues continue. BOINC, as has been stated on these boards many-a-time, is quite mature; we've come a long way. It surprises me that issues like this still continue with such a mature program.
Twas the body language indeed ... :)
Or the irony ...
And I quite agree, that in many ways if you leave it alone it works... adequately if not well ... the problem is that with software if it does not work well ... ahem, it does not get used ... BOINC is not ready for prime time.
The fundamental problem is one of definitions and assumptions ... the things that come before design ... and design comes before implementation ... the problem is that we just do the last step, if you are outside a narrow range of users with a narrow range of computer capabilities and a narrow set of projects, well, BOINC does not work that well at all ...
Awhile ago we talked about the way that the BOINC Manager / Client can create situations where the queue of work can "flex", I don't know yet if the new versions do the same, but I would expect that they will for the simple reason that no one has gone back to the beginning to examine the assumptions that have gone into the implementation. The fun thing about writing down the design is that you can see if the assumptions you make and the definitions are satisified by the implementation ... and if not, where you went wrong ...
But, we don't have a design on paper, much less the definitions of how BOINC should work and so any old implementation will do ... and that is what we have ... any old implementation ...
As to the idea you suggest in another post ... not likely to happen ... you see there is this idea that if you give participants preferences to configure BOINC you are "micromanaging" and that is by definition evil ... BOINC should be able to do what ever it wants whenever it wants and the devil to the participant's desires ... you see, none of them know what they want ...
Oh, another concept we don't consider ... writing BOINC so that it works the way that the participant might like ...
It is completely retarded to take on a ton of work for an overworked project on an always connected host just to make sure the cache stays full to the max at all times. The odds are you would get the work the host really wanted originally in a few minutes to hours more or less (overlooking the somewhat unique situation at MW currently).
The argument that giving an option to explicitly say whether the host was truly network connection limited or not was 'too much complexity' was then and still is a load of codswallop. Especially since AFAIK BOINC has never been able to determine anything about the network state with any kind of accuracy, and never has been able to figure out what to do with a modem when it's done using it (at least on Windows through 5.10.13).
Alinator
I wuv you man!! 8-) [sniffle]
Now that we've all vented according to our BOINC venting preferences, what about the solution? Is the idea of preferences plus a predetermined % (20% in my example) a workable idea? What would it take to solve the problem? From where I'm sitting, limiting the number of seconds to be downloaded beyond the preferences would be an easy fix. Pretty much no fuss, no muss. I certainly don't see a downside.
You bring up a valid point about the network state, but BOINC does this all of the time doesn't it? I've seen many times in the messages tab that BOINC checks the internet connection to determine if the project is offline, then tells us in the next line of message: "internet connection is okay, project likely down for maintenence" or thereabouts. If indeed BOINC can do this, all that is needed then is to tell the client that, 'Gerry has a current connection, continue to download work.' You don't need to know if the connection is offline 12 hours per day; you have the connection now, so maintain the cache according to preferences now. Am I missing something here? As long as the client maintains the cache according to preferences (if the network connection is offline 12 hours per day, this assumption would be included in the user preferences anyway), I don't see where the client can get all tangled into a mess.
You forgot to mention, or haven't seen it in awhile, that when your internet connection is down, you get that message too! Also if you look at your stats for your computers on every projects Your Computers page you will see a note on how often you connect to that Project! Wouldn't it be an easy thing to make the program use that, along with the note that I have an active internet connection to not swamp me with work from other projects until I need it? Seems to me Boinc has all the info available already, it is just a left hand right hand situation.
You forgot to mention, or haven't seen it in awhile, that when your internet connection is down, you get that message too! Also if you look at your stats for your computers on every projects Your Computers page you will see a note on how often you connect to that Project! Wouldn't it be an easy thing to make the program use that, along with the note that I have an active internet connection to not swamp me with work from other projects until I need it? Seems to me Boinc has all the info available already, it is just a left hand right hand situation.
You can turn off the pop-up message by Advanced/Options and slide the network reminder interval to zero which seems to eliminate the message. Or at least I have not seen it since I shoved the slider down.
You forgot to mention, or haven't seen it in awhile, that when your internet connection is down, you get that message too! Also if you look at your stats for your computers on every projects Your Computers page you will see a note on how often you connect to that Project! Wouldn't it be an easy thing to make the program use that, along with the note that I have an active internet connection to not swamp me with work from other projects until I need it? Seems to me Boinc has all the info available already, it is just a left hand right hand situation.
You can turn off the pop-up message by Advanced/Options and slide the network reminder interval to zero which seems to eliminate the message. Or at least I have not seen it since I shoved the slider down.
The only annoying things you may then get are those Windows balloons telling you that your internet/network connection is missing. Having changed from one internet subscription to another (including new modem), I've seen those balloons a lot lately. They don't go away on their own either, I have to click an X on them. Grrrr. ;-)
You forgot to mention, or haven't seen it in awhile, that when your internet connection is down, you get that message too! Also if you look at your stats for your computers on every projects Your Computers page you will see a note on how often you connect to that Project! Wouldn't it be an easy thing to make the program use that, along with the note that I have an active internet connection to not swamp me with work from other projects until I need it? Seems to me Boinc has all the info available already, it is just a left hand right hand situation.
You can turn off the pop-up message by Advanced/Options and slide the network reminder interval to zero which seems to eliminate the message. Or at least I have not seen it since I shoved the slider down.
Thanks I did not know that!
I did not either until Rom answered a note I posted on the mailing list.
There was a line in one of the version notes that indicated that the message had been removed. In that I was still seeing the message I asked about it and that was what he told me. I suppose I should have left it on for at least one system to see if I was still getting it there and not elsewhere, though I had that problem too ... two or three of 4-5 systems with the pop-up and not at all on others (like OS-X never popped it up).
Anyway, my compliant is that they pop it up, but don't close it if the network comes back. In that BOINC is supposed to run without intervention, this is not a non-intervention mode of operation. I still think that the message should not be a modal dialog that must be dismissed ...
I still think that the message should not be a modal dialog that must be dismissed ...
It would be nice if this type of user interface thing could be preferential ( whinge, whinge ..... ).
[aside] Sometimes it's like the XP firewall/updates/virus-protection nag balloon - it doesn't ( that I've found ) have the option "I don't care to be reminded, thank you ... ". Trend Micro Internet Security has an 'emergency' pop-up upon which you have to click the 'x' three times to get it to go away! Oddly, the only emergency it's told me about thus far is when the subscription is due ...
[/aside]
We could politely describe the various expectations as 'disparate', with a spectrum from those will allow BOINC to be installed and then :
- do it's best. Whatever.
to
- Ah! What can we absolutely, positively optimize under all conceivable circumstances.
.... a gum-flapperz perspective :-) :-)
Cheers, Mike.
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
That ain't gum flappin'. That's poignant perspective.
Do our best... hmmm... knock kneed gangly pups in a circle with Akela at the center, the Grand Howl... Will you DYB, DYB, DYB, DYB?.... AH-KAY-LA, we will DOB, DOB, DOB, DOB.
There's no more Do Our Best. And maybe there never was in human societies. Maybe only wolves do their best. Nowadays amongst men it's "show me the money and I'll think about giving you garbage.". So where's the money? Well it sure as heck isn't in developing BOINC. Ask IBM. They smell money or else they wouldn't be investing in the WCG experiment and Alt-BOINC. Why DYB now, Akela, when it just doesn't pay? We'll wait. We'll DOB when we see the money.
That ain't gum flappin'. That's poignant perspective.
Do our best... hmmm... knock kneed gangly pups in a circle with Akela at the center, the Grand Howl... Will you DYB, DYB, DYB, DYB?.... AH-KAY-LA, we will DOB, DOB, DOB, DOB.
There's no more Do Our Best. And maybe there never was in human societies. Maybe only wolves do their best. Nowadays amongst men it's "show me the money and I'll think about giving you garbage.". So where's the money? Well it sure as heck isn't in developing BOINC. Ask IBM. They smell money or else they wouldn't be investing in the WCG experiment and Alt-BOINC. Why DYB now, Akela, when it just doesn't pay? We'll wait. We'll DOB when we see the money.
Probably why Obama will have some trouble with the new Volunteer bill he just signed! Actually it is full of incentives, so he may not. People want something for their time now, not like when people did it just to see the joy on the recipients face!
RE: RE: Heresy, Heresy I
)
Twas the body language indeed ... :)
Or the irony ...
And I quite agree, that in many ways if you leave it alone it works... adequately if not well ... the problem is that with software if it does not work well ... ahem, it does not get used ... BOINC is not ready for prime time.
The fundamental problem is one of definitions and assumptions ... the things that come before design ... and design comes before implementation ... the problem is that we just do the last step, if you are outside a narrow range of users with a narrow range of computer capabilities and a narrow set of projects, well, BOINC does not work that well at all ...
Awhile ago we talked about the way that the BOINC Manager / Client can create situations where the queue of work can "flex", I don't know yet if the new versions do the same, but I would expect that they will for the simple reason that no one has gone back to the beginning to examine the assumptions that have gone into the implementation. The fun thing about writing down the design is that you can see if the assumptions you make and the definitions are satisified by the implementation ... and if not, where you went wrong ...
But, we don't have a design on paper, much less the definitions of how BOINC should work and so any old implementation will do ... and that is what we have ... any old implementation ...
As to the idea you suggest in another post ... not likely to happen ... you see there is this idea that if you give participants preferences to configure BOINC you are "micromanaging" and that is by definition evil ... BOINC should be able to do what ever it wants whenever it wants and the devil to the participant's desires ... you see, none of them know what they want ...
Oh, another concept we don't consider ... writing BOINC so that it works the way that the participant might like ...
What IS happening... lotsa
)
What IS happening... lotsa gum flapping.
What ISN'T happening... links to BOINCs with better schedulers built by gum flapperz.
Been that way for a long time.
Dave A. rules. Gum flapperz droolz.
BOINC FAQ Service
Official BOINC wiki
Installing BOINC on Linux
RE: RE: It is completely
)
You forgot to mention, or haven't seen it in awhile, that when your internet connection is down, you get that message too! Also if you look at your stats for your computers on every projects Your Computers page you will see a note on how often you connect to that Project! Wouldn't it be an easy thing to make the program use that, along with the note that I have an active internet connection to not swamp me with work from other projects until I need it? Seems to me Boinc has all the info available already, it is just a left hand right hand situation.
RE: You forgot to mention,
)
You can turn off the pop-up message by Advanced/Options and slide the network reminder interval to zero which seems to eliminate the message. Or at least I have not seen it since I shoved the slider down.
RE: RE: You forgot to
)
Thanks I did not know that!
The only annoying things you
)
The only annoying things you may then get are those Windows balloons telling you that your internet/network connection is missing. Having changed from one internet subscription to another (including new modem), I've seen those balloons a lot lately. They don't go away on their own either, I have to click an X on them. Grrrr. ;-)
RE: RE: RE: You forgot
)
I did not either until Rom answered a note I posted on the mailing list.
There was a line in one of the version notes that indicated that the message had been removed. In that I was still seeing the message I asked about it and that was what he told me. I suppose I should have left it on for at least one system to see if I was still getting it there and not elsewhere, though I had that problem too ... two or three of 4-5 systems with the pop-up and not at all on others (like OS-X never popped it up).
Anyway, my compliant is that they pop it up, but don't close it if the network comes back. In that BOINC is supposed to run without intervention, this is not a non-intervention mode of operation. I still think that the message should not be a modal dialog that must be dismissed ...
RE: I still think that the
)
It would be nice if this type of user interface thing could be preferential ( whinge, whinge ..... ).
[aside]
Sometimes it's like the XP firewall/updates/virus-protection nag balloon - it doesn't ( that I've found ) have the option "I don't care to be reminded, thank you ... ". Trend Micro Internet Security has an 'emergency' pop-up upon which you have to click the 'x' three times to get it to go away! Oddly, the only emergency it's told me about thus far is when the subscription is due ...
[/aside]
We could politely describe the various expectations as 'disparate', with a spectrum from those will allow BOINC to be installed and then :
- do it's best. Whatever.
to
- Ah! What can we absolutely, positively optimize under all conceivable circumstances.
.... a gum-flapperz perspective :-) :-)
Cheers, Mike.
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
That ain't gum flappin'.
)
That ain't gum flappin'. That's poignant perspective.
Do our best... hmmm... knock kneed gangly pups in a circle with Akela at the center, the Grand Howl... Will you DYB, DYB, DYB, DYB?.... AH-KAY-LA, we will DOB, DOB, DOB, DOB.
There's no more Do Our Best. And maybe there never was in human societies. Maybe only wolves do their best. Nowadays amongst men it's "show me the money and I'll think about giving you garbage.". So where's the money? Well it sure as heck isn't in developing BOINC. Ask IBM. They smell money or else they wouldn't be investing in the WCG experiment and Alt-BOINC. Why DYB now, Akela, when it just doesn't pay? We'll wait. We'll DOB when we see the money.
BOINC FAQ Service
Official BOINC wiki
Installing BOINC on Linux
RE: That ain't gum
)
Probably why Obama will have some trouble with the new Volunteer bill he just signed! Actually it is full of incentives, so he may not. People want something for their time now, not like when people did it just to see the joy on the recipients face!