I would suggest that your timescales there are a rather unrealistic to say the least
What is the average age of a building? And is that likely to change?
Here in Holland buildings of 80+ years are still very common. After what period of time will old buildings be replaced by new ones? If you would not force all buildings to be updated to today's building standards then after what amount of time will the old buildings be replaced by buildings constructed with these new regulations?
I would not expect the majority of those buildings from the 30's to have been replaced within 20 years. So in 20 years time we will have buildings of 100 years old still being common. With proper maintenance buildings could last nearly indefinitely. So if these new regulations are not going to be forced on old buildings then it will take a while before every building is going to be replaced.
So correct it kills people. A reason why in California earthquake retrofit on old building was required, no exceptions. The old code simply was killer. Otherwise there would be 200+ year old buildings held up by bubble gum and bailing wire.
Does England have any old buildings say like castles?
California sits upon an earthquake zone called the San Andreas fault, and therefore it is not surprising that building construction regulations there are different to some other areas of the world.
Does England have any old buildings say like castles?
Yes of course it does, much to the envy of others. They are of course listed buildings by English Heritage and the National Trust, and as such have rather more stringent safety regulations than private accommodation, because they are open to the general public, except the privately owned Royal ones.
Otherwise there would be 200+ year old buildings held up by bubble gum and bailing wire.
The White House in Washington DC was initially rebuilt in 1817. I don't know what fire safety precautions are incorporated in that building, or to what building regulations the initial work and subsequent extensions in 1824-1909 were constructed to.
Perhaps you could update us?
Waiting for Godot & salvation :-)
Why do doctors have to practice?
You'd think they'd have got it right by now
California sits upon an earthquake zone called the San Andreas fault, and therefore it is not surprising that building construction regulations there are different to some other areas of the world.
California isn't different when is comes to fire, nor is the USA.
DownUnda one doesn't own airspace per se but rather the peaceful non-infraction of it. All air vehicles - notably including remote controlled ones - must be 500 feet above local ground. There is also some lateral margin that I forget. For drones etc you can 'take care of business' if they bother you ( provided no other law is broken ). So the onus is absolutely on the owner/operator of said craft to keep well clear of private dwellings. Specifically if you go to the police to complain of someone trashing your drone, this is deemed an admission of guilt of breach of airspace laws. Plus often a charge of stalking etc. More fool you. Some news service tried that line ..... with epic fail, which is nice as normally you can't wreck their cameras etc. :-))))
Cheers, Mike.
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
In 1974 we learned. Why didn't your fire protection people learn?
Simply because we have never had a tower fire like Grenfell before. Neither does the UK fire brigade monitor every fire in the USA, they would never get their own work done. Now that we have had Grenfell I am quite sure that things will change, not least because of public pressure. And yes i think that there is going to have to be a retrofit programme nationally with sprinklers on all tower blocks. I am sure modern systems are more controllable than older designs.
As to earthquakes, they aren't unique to California, or even the Pacific Ring of Fire. Ask Italy, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India.
Yes we know that, but it depends upon how active these plate tectonics and faults are.
The Ring of Fire is a major area in the basin of the Pacific Ocean where a large number of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions occur. it is associated with a nearly continuous series of oceanic trenches, volcanic arcs, and volcanic belts and/or plate movements. It has 452 volcanoes, and about 90% of the world's earthquakes and 81%of the world's largest earthquakes occur there. The Ring of Fire is a direct result of plate tectonics.
The famous and very active San Andreas Fault zone of California is a transform fault which offsets a portion of the East Pacific Rise under south western United States and Mexico.
The other countries that you mention also sit on or close to other subduction zones
Therefore it is simply not sensible to compare earthquake proof building standards in California to those in the UK. Neither is it sensible to compare fire safety standards in a likewise manner. Standards are derived from the perceived risk. To say that the UK should have experience of big fires since the one in 1666 is well, quite extraordinary. Considering that the dwellings at the time were timber built, and modern tower blocks are constructed of reinforced concrete and steel girders.
You could say why do the USA authorities allow so many people to live in California when the San Andreas fault is already predicted to be over due to happen again. Didn't you learn your lesson in San Francisco in 1906? What about the Yellowstone caldera that is also predicted by some to be overdue to erupt again at any time? People still live on top of it. What about the people living on the slopes of Mount Etna, would you like to tell Italy that they should have learned their lesson in 1669 and 1928?
DownUnda one doesn't own airspace per se but rather the peaceful non-infraction of it. All air vehicles - notably including remote controlled ones - must be 500 feet above local ground.
500 feet seems to be the usual average in most places.
“Cuius est solum, eius est usque ad coelum et ad inferos”
I'm afraid doesn't hold water today. Someone else may own the mineral rights under your land, and in the UK, the Queen gets first dibs anyway.
In 1974 we learned. Why didn't your fire protection people learn?
Simply because we have never had a tower fire like Grenfell before. Neither does the UK fire brigade monitor every fire in the USA, they would never get their own work done. Now that we have had Grenfell I am quite sure that things will change, not least because of public pressure. And yes i think that there is going to have to be a retrofit programme nationally with sprinklers on all tower blocks. I am sure modern systems are more controllable than older designs.
Fire did not happen in the USA. Sao Palo Brazil and it killed twice as many, so it was big big news!
You have confessed the problem, UK won't learn any lesson no matter how tragic unless it happens to the UK. I did not expect to see the real root cause of Grenfeld ever posted as you have done. Burn that into your memory and vow to never let that happen again.
Jonathan_76 wrote:Quote:I
So correct it kills people. A reason why in California earthquake retrofit on old building was required, no exceptions. The old code simply was killer. Otherwise there would be 200+ year old buildings held up by bubble gum and bailing wire.
Does England have any old buildings say like castles?
Yes The oldest being from
Yes
The oldest being from around 3700BC!
California sits upon an
California sits upon an earthquake zone called the San Andreas fault, and therefore it is not surprising that building construction regulations there are different to some other areas of the world.
Yes of course it does, much to the envy of others. They are of course listed buildings by English Heritage and the National Trust, and as such have rather more stringent safety regulations than private accommodation, because they are open to the general public, except the privately owned Royal ones.
The White House in Washington DC was initially rebuilt in 1817. I don't know what fire safety precautions are incorporated in that building, or to what building regulations the initial work and subsequent extensions in 1824-1909 were constructed to.
Perhaps you could update us?
Waiting for Godot & salvation :-)
Why do doctors have to practice?
You'd think they'd have got it right by now
Jonathan_76 wrote:Yes The
Wonder what the building code required then?
Chris S_2 wrote:California
California isn't different when is comes to fire, nor is the USA.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oumnaW0jmU0
In 1974 we learned. Why didn't your fire protection people learn?
After this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Interstate_Tower_fire we learned the second lesson, retrofit is mandatory. Why didn't your fire protection people learn?
As to earthquakes, they aren't unique to California, or even the Pacific Ring of Fire. Ask Italy, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India.
I guess that is the best
I guess that is the best solution, mandatory retrofit. Time will tell if it will be and who will be paying for it.
DownUnda one doesn't own
DownUnda one doesn't own airspace per se but rather the peaceful non-infraction of it. All air vehicles - notably including remote controlled ones - must be 500 feet above local ground. There is also some lateral margin that I forget. For drones etc you can 'take care of business' if they bother you ( provided no other law is broken ). So the onus is absolutely on the owner/operator of said craft to keep well clear of private dwellings. Specifically if you go to the police to complain of someone trashing your drone, this is deemed an admission of guilt of breach of airspace laws. Plus often a charge of stalking etc. More fool you. Some news service tried that line ..... with epic fail, which is nice as normally you can't wreck their cameras etc. :-))))
Cheers, Mike.
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
In 1974 we learned. Why
Simply because we have never had a tower fire like Grenfell before. Neither does the UK fire brigade monitor every fire in the USA, they would never get their own work done. Now that we have had Grenfell I am quite sure that things will change, not least because of public pressure. And yes i think that there is going to have to be a retrofit programme nationally with sprinklers on all tower blocks. I am sure modern systems are more controllable than older designs.
Yes we know that, but it depends upon how active these plate tectonics and faults are.
The other countries that you mention also sit on or close to other subduction zones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_of_Fire#/media/File:Plates_tect2_en.svg
Therefore it is simply not sensible to compare earthquake proof building standards in California to those in the UK. Neither is it sensible to compare fire safety standards in a likewise manner. Standards are derived from the perceived risk. To say that the UK should have experience of big fires since the one in 1666 is well, quite extraordinary. Considering that the dwellings at the time were timber built, and modern tower blocks are constructed of reinforced concrete and steel girders.
You could say why do the USA authorities allow so many people to live in California when the San Andreas fault is already predicted to be over due to happen again. Didn't you learn your lesson in San Francisco in 1906? What about the Yellowstone caldera that is also predicted by some to be overdue to erupt again at any time? People still live on top of it. What about the people living on the slopes of Mount Etna, would you like to tell Italy that they should have learned their lesson in 1669 and 1928?
Late edit - Seti cafe
Waiting for Godot & salvation :-)
Why do doctors have to practice?
You'd think they'd have got it right by now
DownUnda one doesn't own
500 feet seems to be the usual average in most places.
I'm afraid doesn't hold water today. Someone else may own the mineral rights under your land, and in the UK, the Queen gets first dibs anyway.
land rights
Waiting for Godot & salvation :-)
Why do doctors have to practice?
You'd think they'd have got it right by now
Chris S_2 wrote: In 1974 we
Fire did not happen in the USA. Sao Palo Brazil and it killed twice as many, so it was big big news!
You have confessed the problem, UK won't learn any lesson no matter how tragic unless it happens to the UK. I did not expect to see the real root cause of Grenfeld ever posted as you have done. Burn that into your memory and vow to never let that happen again.