Must say I sympathize with you, Brian, I also prefer it cooler, about 20C/68F. Which actually goes against Mike's piece, most of my first 15 years on this planet were in Africa, mainly Sudan (middle of Shara desert) and Eritrea. And since then spent another 12 years in Cyprus and Italy.
I googled max office temps and only Canada has any Thermal Comfort for Office Work recommendations. There it says 21-23°C (69-73°F). Virtually everything else that studied problem quotes 20-24C (68-75F). UK only has min temp regulation which is 16C (61F), 13C is work is physical.
Most people I've talked to agree that 75-80 is too warm, with the exception of the people in the room. I guess I need to validate the temperature that my digital thermometer is claiming. That could be part of the problem. There are old spring type thermometers in the room and with the thermostat (metal coil and it is supposed to expand/contract and reflect the correct temperature). Those consistently indicate "70" up to "72". If those are actually correct, then my thermometer may be psychologically influencing me to think it is warm. On the other hand, if those are incorrect, they may be psychologically influencing the other people to think it is "cool".
Must say I sympathize with you, Brian, I also prefer it cooler, about 20C/68F. Which actually goes against Mike's piece, most of my first 15 years on this planet were in Africa, mainly Sudan (middle of Shara desert) and Eritrea. And since then spent another 12 years in Cyprus and Italy.
I googled max office temps and only Canada has any Thermal Comfort for Office Work recommendations. There it says 21-23°C (69-73°F). Virtually everything else that studied problem quotes 20-24C (68-75F). UK only has min temp regulation which is 16C (61F), 13C is work is physical.
Most people I've talked to agree that 75-80 is too warm, with the exception of the people in the room. I guess I need to validate the temperature that my digital thermometer is claiming. That could be part of the problem. There are old spring type thermometers in the room and with the thermostat (metal coil and it is supposed to expand/contract and reflect the correct temperature). Those consistently indicate "70" up to "72". If those are actually correct, then my thermometer may be psychologically influencing me to think it is warm. On the other hand, if those are incorrect, they may be psychologically influencing the other people to think it is "cool".
In my experience Brian you cannot win the comfort debate. Everyone's idea of comfort is different and you cannot convince others to willingly be uncomfortable so that you can. Do you expect facilities management to take sides? There are too many variables, for example what kind of clothing do people like to wear to work, where is your desk located (near a window or under a vent?) Are you sitting at a desk all day or actively moving about conversing with commrades? Is your desk near some electrical equipment that generate heat or near a stairwell where there is a thermal updraft?
I worked for Rockwell Automation. We built a new facility and moved into it. It had all the latest temperature gadgetry. But alas the first tempest in a teapot was a huge arguement about the temperature at each individual desk. The ladies began covering the ventilation openings, the guys next to the girls complained of hyper thermia, I sat next to a large window and it was downright cold there in winter and hot when the sun shined through. There was and still is no pleasing the masses when it comes to comfort. All the thermostats were locked and only facilities management controlled the temp; no one was happy. Still the work got done otherwise you were unemployed. I'm retired now and can set the temp to whatever I want; you have something to look forward to.
Must say I sympathize with you, Brian, I also prefer it cooler, about 20C/68F. Which actually goes against Mike's piece, most of my first 15 years on this planet were in Africa, mainly Sudan (middle of Shara desert) and Eritrea. And since then spent another 12 years in Cyprus and Italy.
I googled max office temps and only Canada has any Thermal Comfort for Office Work recommendations. There it says 21-23°C (69-73°F). Virtually everything else that studied problem quotes 20-24C (68-75F). UK only has min temp regulation which is 16C (61F), 13C is work is physical.
Most people I've talked to agree that 75-80 is too warm, with the exception of the people in the room. I guess I need to validate the temperature that my digital thermometer is claiming. That could be part of the problem. There are old spring type thermometers in the room and with the thermostat (metal coil and it is supposed to expand/contract and reflect the correct temperature). Those consistently indicate "70" up to "72". If those are actually correct, then my thermometer may be psychologically influencing me to think it is warm. On the other hand, if those are incorrect, they may be psychologically influencing the other people to think it is "cool".
In my experience Brian you cannot win the comfort debate. Everyone's idea of comfort is different and you cannot convince others to willingly be uncomfortable so that you can. Do you expect facilities management to take sides? There are too many variables, for example what kind of clothing do people like to wear to work, where is your desk located (near a window or under a vent?) Are you sitting at a desk all day or actively moving about conversing with commrades? Is your desk near some electrical equipment that generate heat or near a stairwell where there is a thermal updraft?
I worked for Rockwell Automation. We built a new facility and moved into it. It had all the latest temperature gadgetry. But alas the first tempest in a teapot was a huge arguement about the temperature at each individual desk. The ladies began covering the ventilation openings, the guys next to the girls complained of hyper thermia, I sat next to a large window and it was downright cold there in winter and hot when the sun shined through. There was and still is no pleasing the masses when it comes to comfort. All the thermostats were locked and only facilities management controlled the temp; no one was happy. Still the work got done otherwise you were unemployed. I'm retired now and can set the temp to whatever I want; you have something to look forward to.
The only window in the room is at the far end, and it is never open. As for clothing, if one is normally cold, one should attempt to dress warmly and not make others suffer for their affliction. If the situation were reversed and someone was cold at 65, something that is completely comfortable for me (my room is at that temp right now and I'm in shorts with no socks and a t-shirt), I would at least be willing to increase up to help them, as I *know* that asking people to just deal with it being 65 is an unreasonable stance, considering there isn't anything "mission critical" that needs to be kept cool.
So, what bugs me the most is the utter unwillingness to bend towards something truly reasonable. It got up to 80 today before the building-wide air turned cool... The reason why is because someone (not me) had set the a/c to 75. It turned on while I was talking to the guy next to the thermostat. I watched his eyes shift over to check on the setting. I knew what was coming, so I stayed there talking a little longer than I needed to so that he wouldn't be able to get up and turn it up to 80. About 30 minutes later, it cut on again, but was only on for about 15 seconds before being shut off. When I checked a little bit later, sure enough, the thermostat had been set up to 80.
On the lower floors, it is not as bad because of less computer equipment and higher ceilings, making it about 3-5 degrees cooler. I sat and suffered, completely non-productive. I'm going to try bringing in cold packs and making a makeshift a/c unit using them and my fan. This is ridiculous... Just a few weeks ago they were fine with it 70-75. Now that the mornings are cool (45-55), they want it to be toasty... It's the same temp and the same relative humidity as before!
The thing that boggles my mind about this is the idea that the same indoor temperature and relative humidity is different based on the time of year.
If it is 70 degrees F and 45% relative humidity on October 1st, it appears as though many people state that this is "cooler" than 70 degrees F and 45% relative humidity on July 1st. Both measurements taken in the same room with the same air flow.
That does not compute...
My brain cannot comprehend that. My body doesn't comprehend it either, particularly when people start insisting that 78-80 degrees with 50% humidity is just as comfortable...
The thing that boggles my mind about this is the idea that the same indoor temperature and relative humidity is different based on the time of year.
If it is 70 degrees F and 45% relative humidity on October 1st, it appears as though many people state that this is "cooler" than 70 degrees F and 45% relative humidity on July 1st. Both measurements taken in the same room with the same air flow.
IMO what you just described is exactly what you are ignoring in your analysis. You look at 70 degrees as if it was an absolute when it comes to determining comfort; that is, at 70 degrees a person should always -- in fact must -- feel exactly the same. In my home I set the thermostat at a constant whether winter or summer. However, this setting does not feel the same to me in winter as it does in summer. Why? The thermostat records the average over time, it doesn't react instantly to heat or cold, but my skin does. So when the heater is on and blowing out 100 degree air into a room whose ambient air is in the sixties it feels different to me than when the AC is blowing out 40 degree air into the same room during the summer. The average ambient temp may remain around 70 degrees but the blowing hot or cold air is felt directly on the skin. I cannot deny how I feel even though the thermostat setting has not changed.
Even during the same season I feel different day to day. I'm a person who 1 hour after eating a meal will feel hot for 2 hours while metabolizing the meal and then feel cold afterward. Go figure. All I know is you cannot best your coworkers in the comfort debate with logic and absolutes; there is nothing logical and absolute about how one feels from moment to moment. The best your employer can do is use a themostat setting that generates the fewest complaints... hah, good luck with that! I cannot even make myself happy and I have control of the controls!
(edit)... I forgot to mention that my wife sits around the house in the summer wearing a long-sleeved sweatshirt or even a light jacket... complains the house is too cold (75 degrees)...in the summer?...while I'm quite comfortable.
My employer used to send me and cronies south to Georgia to another mfg plant. If the temp there was below 80-85 degrees the locals complained of a cold spell; when the Georgians came north to Ohio they really complained and asked us how we could stand the numbing cold (in summer!). You can't please anybody; it's all in what you are used to and how one feels from hour to hour and place to place, as well as one's own biology and makeup.
The average ambient temp may remain around 70 degrees but the blowing hot or cold air is felt directly on the skin. I cannot deny how I feel even though the thermostat setting has not changed.
The variable you have brought in is air flow. The air flow in here is non-existant where the cold people are sitting. Where you may be correct, however, is with the change in airflow on the skin caused by the longer runtime needed to drop to the same temperature.
My concern is when the boiler in the building is actually turned on. All they are doing now is stopping the compressor at night... When the boiler gets engaged, a setting of 80 on the a/c overnight will cause the room to get to 80. You then have a cascade effect with all the computer equipment running. As ambient temperature rises, the exhaust temperature will also rise due to the warmer air being brought in through the front intake fans. This means that there will be more heat being exhausted into an already warmer room. To cool the room, the a/c will have to run longer, leading to people complaining about the draft on their skin.
One thing I have done is I mentioned that I've heard mutterings about the level of dust in the room and that someone should come clean the vents / filters and vacuum the carpet. That could be another contributing factor to not wanting the system running.
I'm not a believer in "silent suffering", obviously. People shouldn't feel like they need to not bring up matters of health and comfort. The room is indeed dusty. From what I can tell, the supervisors do care, but they need input and not the silent suffering...
RE: Must say I sympathize
)
Most people I've talked to agree that 75-80 is too warm, with the exception of the people in the room. I guess I need to validate the temperature that my digital thermometer is claiming. That could be part of the problem. There are old spring type thermometers in the room and with the thermostat (metal coil and it is supposed to expand/contract and reflect the correct temperature). Those consistently indicate "70" up to "72". If those are actually correct, then my thermometer may be psychologically influencing me to think it is warm. On the other hand, if those are incorrect, they may be psychologically influencing the other people to think it is "cool".
RE: RE: Must say I
)
In my experience Brian you cannot win the comfort debate. Everyone's idea of comfort is different and you cannot convince others to willingly be uncomfortable so that you can. Do you expect facilities management to take sides? There are too many variables, for example what kind of clothing do people like to wear to work, where is your desk located (near a window or under a vent?) Are you sitting at a desk all day or actively moving about conversing with commrades? Is your desk near some electrical equipment that generate heat or near a stairwell where there is a thermal updraft?
I worked for Rockwell Automation. We built a new facility and moved into it. It had all the latest temperature gadgetry. But alas the first tempest in a teapot was a huge arguement about the temperature at each individual desk. The ladies began covering the ventilation openings, the guys next to the girls complained of hyper thermia, I sat next to a large window and it was downright cold there in winter and hot when the sun shined through. There was and still is no pleasing the masses when it comes to comfort. All the thermostats were locked and only facilities management controlled the temp; no one was happy. Still the work got done otherwise you were unemployed. I'm retired now and can set the temp to whatever I want; you have something to look forward to.
RE: RE: RE: Must say I
)
The only window in the room is at the far end, and it is never open. As for clothing, if one is normally cold, one should attempt to dress warmly and not make others suffer for their affliction. If the situation were reversed and someone was cold at 65, something that is completely comfortable for me (my room is at that temp right now and I'm in shorts with no socks and a t-shirt), I would at least be willing to increase up to help them, as I *know* that asking people to just deal with it being 65 is an unreasonable stance, considering there isn't anything "mission critical" that needs to be kept cool.
So, what bugs me the most is the utter unwillingness to bend towards something truly reasonable. It got up to 80 today before the building-wide air turned cool... The reason why is because someone (not me) had set the a/c to 75. It turned on while I was talking to the guy next to the thermostat. I watched his eyes shift over to check on the setting. I knew what was coming, so I stayed there talking a little longer than I needed to so that he wouldn't be able to get up and turn it up to 80. About 30 minutes later, it cut on again, but was only on for about 15 seconds before being shut off. When I checked a little bit later, sure enough, the thermostat had been set up to 80.
On the lower floors, it is not as bad because of less computer equipment and higher ceilings, making it about 3-5 degrees cooler. I sat and suffered, completely non-productive. I'm going to try bringing in cold packs and making a makeshift a/c unit using them and my fan. This is ridiculous... Just a few weeks ago they were fine with it 70-75. Now that the mornings are cool (45-55), they want it to be toasty... It's the same temp and the same relative humidity as before!
Brian...aka "hot and grumpy"
The thing that boggles my
)
The thing that boggles my mind about this is the idea that the same indoor temperature and relative humidity is different based on the time of year.
If it is 70 degrees F and 45% relative humidity on October 1st, it appears as though many people state that this is "cooler" than 70 degrees F and 45% relative humidity on July 1st. Both measurements taken in the same room with the same air flow.
That does not compute...
My brain cannot comprehend that. My body doesn't comprehend it either, particularly when people start insisting that 78-80 degrees with 50% humidity is just as comfortable...
Brian...off to the sauna
in cold we thrive
)
in cold we thrive
Son of a BIT!
RE: The thing that boggles
)
IMO what you just described is exactly what you are ignoring in your analysis. You look at 70 degrees as if it was an absolute when it comes to determining comfort; that is, at 70 degrees a person should always -- in fact must -- feel exactly the same. In my home I set the thermostat at a constant whether winter or summer. However, this setting does not feel the same to me in winter as it does in summer. Why? The thermostat records the average over time, it doesn't react instantly to heat or cold, but my skin does. So when the heater is on and blowing out 100 degree air into a room whose ambient air is in the sixties it feels different to me than when the AC is blowing out 40 degree air into the same room during the summer. The average ambient temp may remain around 70 degrees but the blowing hot or cold air is felt directly on the skin. I cannot deny how I feel even though the thermostat setting has not changed.
Even during the same season I feel different day to day. I'm a person who 1 hour after eating a meal will feel hot for 2 hours while metabolizing the meal and then feel cold afterward. Go figure. All I know is you cannot best your coworkers in the comfort debate with logic and absolutes; there is nothing logical and absolute about how one feels from moment to moment. The best your employer can do is use a themostat setting that generates the fewest complaints... hah, good luck with that! I cannot even make myself happy and I have control of the controls!
(edit)... I forgot to mention that my wife sits around the house in the summer wearing a long-sleeved sweatshirt or even a light jacket... complains the house is too cold (75 degrees)...in the summer?...while I'm quite comfortable.
My employer used to send me and cronies south to Georgia to another mfg plant. If the temp there was below 80-85 degrees the locals complained of a cold spell; when the Georgians came north to Ohio they really complained and asked us how we could stand the numbing cold (in summer!). You can't please anybody; it's all in what you are used to and how one feels from hour to hour and place to place, as well as one's own biology and makeup.
RE: The average ambient
)
The variable you have brought in is air flow. The air flow in here is non-existant where the cold people are sitting. Where you may be correct, however, is with the change in airflow on the skin caused by the longer runtime needed to drop to the same temperature.
My concern is when the boiler in the building is actually turned on. All they are doing now is stopping the compressor at night... When the boiler gets engaged, a setting of 80 on the a/c overnight will cause the room to get to 80. You then have a cascade effect with all the computer equipment running. As ambient temperature rises, the exhaust temperature will also rise due to the warmer air being brought in through the front intake fans. This means that there will be more heat being exhausted into an already warmer room. To cool the room, the a/c will have to run longer, leading to people complaining about the draft on their skin.
One thing I have done is I mentioned that I've heard mutterings about the level of dust in the room and that someone should come clean the vents / filters and vacuum the carpet. That could be another contributing factor to not wanting the system running.
I'm not a believer in "silent suffering", obviously. People shouldn't feel like they need to not bring up matters of health and comfort. The room is indeed dusty. From what I can tell, the supervisors do care, but they need input and not the silent suffering...