Righto. From the horse's mouth ( my bold emphasis ) :
"If your orders have to cross country borders to reach their delivery destination, your customers might have to pay customs fees when they receive them. This depends entirely on the destination country and it’s beyond Printful’s control. We can’t mark orders as gifts or not declare the actual value.
The amount customers have to pay depends entirely on the destination country and its laws. Some countries apply customs fees on orders valued at less than a certain price. Some may charge extra handling fees. It all depends on your customer’s location. The one thing that’ll always stay the same: customs will have to be paid by your end customers upon receiving their order at the border.
For example, for orders fulfilled outside of the UK, but shipped to an end address in the UK, VAT and customs duties will differ depending on the order amount (product price excluding shipping). If it’s less than GBP 135, Printful will charge you VAT, but customs won’t be charged. If the order value is more than GBP 135, Printful won’t charge you VAT, but the order recipient will be charged VAT and customs fees upon receiving this order at the border.
A similar exception applies to orders shipped to the EU from outside the EU. If the order value is less than EUR 150, Printful will charge you VAT, but your customer won’t be charged VAT or customs fees. If the order value is more than EUR 150, Printful won’t charge you VAT but your customers will have to pay VAT and customs duties when receiving their order.
It’s a good idea to let your customers know that they may have to pay customs and VAT fees so there aren’t any unpleasant surprises. You could write a disclaimer on the checkout page that this order may incur customs and VAT fees."
So that could be a dealbreaker for some, but nought can be done at the vendor's end about that. Blame your government. Note that refers to the total order value not a per item value.
So if I operated from Norway ( which I don't ), say as an importer ( to then resell in their jurisdiction ) I'd have to reconcile/remit any customs/excise and VAT before retail sale. I quote Norway because their VAT is quite savage at 25% ( 15% for foodstuffs ).
In summary : I'm not an importer and neither is the drop-shipper. The actual recipient is deemed as being the importer in all instances.
Cheers, Mike.
P.S. Again, thanks for the hint on that Gary ! ;-)
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
OK. That then raises the following scenario : what do I charge the customer at checkout when VAT ( or like ) payment may or may not happen depending on total order value ?
if VAT is to be paid by the drop-shipper then I'll need to pass that on to the customer in the sale price.
if VAT is not to be paid by the drop-shipper then, to be fair, I'll need to not pass that on to the customer.
You see, at the time of checkout on the online store, before payment is made, the drop-shipper doesn't even know the order exists ! In fact the order doesn't exist until the bank-to-bank transaction takes place ( customer to vendor ).
Hmmmm ..... thinking out loud ...... this could also make refunds and returns a nightmare ( if the sale terms include those possibilities ). Probably simpler to have NO refunds and returns, because once some transactions take place ( to third parties like customs ) they can't be undone by the vendor. Yeah it'll have to be caveat emptor ie. let the buyer beware, at own risk etc. So that also has to be understood by the customer ( as a disclaimer ) before sale occurs.
Cheers, Mike.
( edit ) I wonder if a 'click to agree to terms' functionality is included at the online store end of things, before payment is agreed to ?
{ NB. the BCD can be up to 100%, not 20% as in this above example. Plus we have percentages compounding on percentages ie. a tax on a tax on a tax ! }
So for example, FTA ( Free Trade Agreement ) is a major component here and that will or not be applied depending on where the drop-shipper's fulfilment centre is for any given item. In fact for any given order, several fulfilment centres may be involved ( as not all fulfilment centres have the same production functionality ). I forgot to mention that an order can be sent to the customer in several shipments ( at the election of the drop-shipper, as per their internal business rules ).
What a nightmare ! The vendor is not liable and can't be made liable for the accuracy of that ....
Yah, it will have to be done DDU : Delivered Duty Unpaid. For everyone.
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
.... when VAT ( or like ) payment may or may not happen depending on total order value ?
Well at least I know where to look on that question. That nexus lies with the quality of the chosen tax software to integrate with the online platform.
Don't worry team : it'll still fly. Others have done it and so can I. If it's a cost of business then so be it, fold it in to the price.
Cheers, Mike.
( edit ) Cripes, I've just looked at Norway again. It's very good that we're not in the tobacco business !
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
As an example, I recently ordered and received an EPYC dual CPU and motherboard from a Chinese vendor on EBAY worth more than a $1,000 USD. It had the disclaimer than the 'consignee' would be responsible for paying any 'duties and taxes' on the item(s). Yet when I did receive the item(s), I paid no 'duties and taxes' for the importing country/state/county/city where I live in Rockford, IL, U.S.A.
With the existing tariffs and the like for trade between the U.S. & China, how is that?
Well done ! It looks like your sale didn't attract either tariff or sales tax - through that vendor.
I haven't much looked at E-Bay beyond reading alot of ( pretty negative ) reviews by vendors. It's a marketplace and so there is much more regulation if you are a member. In particular there is a monthly assignment of seller performance level and there is a minimum. If you are below standards for two consecutive months then significant restrictions are applied. It really suits those who keep inventory and do their own shipping ( thus ought to ship promptly, best case ). So not really for the drop-shipping paradigm, since I can't demand any level of performance from a drop-shipper ( short of walking away ). For me that's just a layer I don't need.
As for USA/PRC I believe the following to be true ( please, someone correct me if I'm wrong ):
China is a MFN ( Most-Favored-Nation, sometimes referred to as NTR for Normal-Trade-Relations ) as of earlier this month, which would generally attract a 0% ( yes, zero ) to low percentage import tariff into the USA from China. That does not seem to have been reversed. However there is/was some congressional legislation afoot to make that conditional ( by executive approval ? ) on a yearly basis ? Mr De Santis had something to say about that a few weeks ago. I think that's due to
geopolitics vis-a-vis IndoPacific
preference to US industries and
China has ~ 18% of global domestic product and thus is a cow to be milked
Cheers, Mike.
( edit ) We have a bicameral system here DownUnda, where IIRC only* the lower house members can introduce legislation. Your Senate can initiate legislation ? Plus we don't have executive veto etc.
* The Senate's law-making powers are equal to those of the House of Representatives except that it cannot introduce or amend proposed laws that authorise expenditure for the ordinary annual services of the government or that impose taxation. So there !
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
Well done ! It looks like your sale didn't attract either tariff or sales tax - through that vendor.
I haven't much looked at E-Bay beyond reading alot of ( pretty negative ) reviews by vendors. It's a marketplace and so there is much more regulation if you are a member. In particular there is a monthly assignment of seller performance level and there is a minimum. If you are below standards for two consecutive months then significant restrictions are applied. It really suits those who keep inventory and do their own shipping ( thus ought to ship promptly, best case ). So not really for the drop-shipping paradigm, since I can't demand any level of performance from a drop-shipper ( short of walking away ). For me that's just a layer I don't need.
As for USA/PRC I believe the following to be true ( please, someone correct me if I'm wrong ):
China is a MFN ( Most-Favored-Nation, sometimes referred to as NTR for Normal-Trade-Relations ) as of earlier this month, which would generally attract a 0% ( yes, zero ) to low percentage import tariff into the USA from China. That does not seem to have been reversed. However there is/was some congressional legislation afoot to make that conditional ( by executive approval ? ) on a yearly basis ? Mr De Santis had something to say about that a few weeks ago. I think that's due to
geopolitics vis-a-vis IndoPacific
preference to US industries and
China has ~ 18% of global domestic product and thus is a cow to be milked
Cheers, Mike.
( edit ) We have a bicameral system here DownUnda, where IIRC only* the lower house members can introduce legislation. Your Senate can initiate legislation ? Plus we don't have executive veto etc.
* The Senate's law-making powers are equal to those of the House of Representatives except that it cannot introduce or amend proposed laws that authorise expenditure for the ordinary annual services of the government or that impose taxation. So there !
You are correct Mike!! Taking the MFN status away from China would cost Americans BILLIONS in taxes as over 90% of our drugs, clothing, electronics etc etc etc come from there right now. YES the US is trying to diversify but as usual politics is getting in the way of a speedy transfer, ie the politicians wrangling over which new plant will be built where and how many people it will hire and at what salary range. There's the usual 'no you can't build that in my area but yes I want that instead' as politicians try to get the highest paid jobs in their area and let everyone else get the lower paying jobs. In short it will take years for the transition to happen and by then China could be a shadow of its current self or a much larger Super Power depending on which News station you are listening to today.
"You are correct Mike!! Taking the MFN status away from China would cost Americans BILLIONS in taxes as over 90% of our drugs, clothing, electronics etc etc etc come from there right now. YES the US is trying to diversify but as usual politics is getting in the way of a speedy transfer, ie the politicians wrangling over which new plant will be built where and how many people it will hire and at what salary range. There's the usual 'no you can't build that in my area but yes I want that instead' as politicians try to get the highest paid jobs in their area and let everyone else get the lower paying jobs. In short it will take years for the transition to happen and by then China could be a shadow of its current self or a much larger Super Power depending on which News station you are listening to today."
I figured as much. Not that much different to DownUnda then !
In other aspects :
I have found no software product - at least selling for less than $2500 USD per month, clearly not going to happen then at that price - that does worldwide sales-tax/VAT/GST with an online sale prior to finalising checkout. AFAIK everyone is handballing that issue for small online businesses. I don't buy software if you have to contact Sales to get a quote. Put the price upfront or you've lost me, it's that simple.
Etsy for instance, by default, does not ship worldwide and yet encourages vendors to offer free shipping if you do. That's a recipe for disaster and only makes sense if you have massive buffering ( financial and inventory ) in your business plus great margins and/or high volume otherwise ie. what are you doing selling on Etsy then ?
DDU is an old term, replaced by DAP ( Delivered-At-Place ) : ".... the seller delivers the goods at a named destination, specified by the buyer, although under the ICC rules, the unloading of the goods are the responsibility of the buyer. The buyer is also required to sort out duties and taxes, as well as clearing the goods through customs."
Maybe I shouldn't expect a rational solution for international shipping, that being precluded by various contexts. You make your choices and live with it, don't overthink it.
Cheers, Mike.
( edit ) I recall now buying a handmade marble chess set in 2008 during a visit to Vietnam. We were at a producer that sold direct to consumer, right next to the mountain that supplied the marble. Anyway I haggled the price a little and got a great deal ( bypassing Hanoi basically ). When it arrived in Australia ( I was back at home by then ) Customs & Quarantine contacted me with an invoice for duties ( not alot ) and it was picked up by a friend who had a ute and was going by that way. It must have gone under some threshold I reckon and also we didn't have much of a marble carving industry in Australia then ( well, aside from the usual tombstones & monuments ). I know that other marble chess sets could be bought in Australia but they were all imported anyway. Strictly speaking that would have been DAT ( Delivered-At-Terminal ), but I knew that was going to happen. So all was cool.
( edit ) Now almost all online vendors who do offer 'free' shipping have already charged for it in the retail price. But it seems that those vendors value that as per worst case scenario, assuming some obtuse/expensive destinations then, and would thus make a handy profit from the commoner simpler deliveries. So beware that folks ! Would the buyer still proceed if they knew that was going on undisclosed, because that shipping methodology isn't revealed .... no such thing as a free lunch eh ??
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
Have you made any progress on selling Einstein@Home T-shirts 'worldwide'?
I know it's been at least a month since you last explained what your up against, and the "worldwide sales-tax/VAT/GST" @ Big-Buck$/month had to be the deal breaker for you.
Have you thought about selling in only Australia & United States?
The tax software may be considerably less, it may also be more of a test market(s) to see if it's worth going worldwide.
I've been investigating other online sales platforms, and the news is that there are some who do a better job at tax management than Shopify (on their basic scheme), but at a cost. It all comes down to yearly turnover (as expected) and there may not be the demand to cover that aspect. But I'll keep looking ... however it is evident that many small online vendors just don't tick the tax boxes properly; I think likely relying on a low risk of being caught out.
Cheers, Mike
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
Just now seeing this thread. SCI is happy to handle all the shipping, logistics, etc via our redbubble store and split the proceeds with Einstein* it's just a matter of getting approval from the Einstein admins. If they have a custom design they'd like, we'd certainly welcome it, and/or we can just use their logo of course. And we can put it on t-shirts, mugs, glasses cases, etc.
* or they can just donate all the proceeds to our BOINC bug bounty program. Some projects hosting at unis have a lot of red tape and find it easier to just not accept the money in the first place.
Righto. From the horse's
)
Righto. From the horse's mouth ( my bold emphasis ) :
"If your orders have to cross country borders to reach their delivery destination, your customers might have to pay customs fees when they receive them. This depends entirely on the destination country and it’s beyond Printful’s control. We can’t mark orders as gifts or not declare the actual value.
The amount customers have to pay depends entirely on the destination country and its laws. Some countries apply customs fees on orders valued at less than a certain price. Some may charge extra handling fees. It all depends on your customer’s location. The one thing that’ll always stay the same: customs will have to be paid by your end customers upon receiving their order at the border.
For example, for orders fulfilled outside of the UK, but shipped to an end address in the UK, VAT and customs duties will differ depending on the order amount (product price excluding shipping). If it’s less than GBP 135, Printful will charge you VAT, but customs won’t be charged. If the order value is more than GBP 135, Printful won’t charge you VAT, but the order recipient will be charged VAT and customs fees upon receiving this order at the border.
A similar exception applies to orders shipped to the EU from outside the EU. If the order value is less than EUR 150, Printful will charge you VAT, but your customer won’t be charged VAT or customs fees. If the order value is more than EUR 150, Printful won’t charge you VAT but your customers will have to pay VAT and customs duties when receiving their order.
It’s a good idea to let your customers know that they may have to pay customs and VAT fees so there aren’t any unpleasant surprises. You could write a disclaimer on the checkout page that this order may incur customs and VAT fees."
So that could be a dealbreaker for some, but nought can be done at the vendor's end about that. Blame your government. Note that refers to the total order value not a per item value.
So if I operated from Norway ( which I don't ), say as an importer ( to then resell in their jurisdiction ) I'd have to reconcile/remit any customs/excise and VAT before retail sale. I quote Norway because their VAT is quite savage at 25% ( 15% for foodstuffs ).
In summary : I'm not an importer and neither is the drop-shipper. The actual recipient is deemed as being the importer in all instances.
Cheers, Mike.
P.S. Again, thanks for the hint on that Gary ! ;-)
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
OK. That then raises the
)
OK. That then raises the following scenario : what do I charge the customer at checkout when VAT ( or like ) payment may or may not happen depending on total order value ?
You see, at the time of checkout on the online store, before payment is made, the drop-shipper doesn't even know the order exists ! In fact the order doesn't exist until the bank-to-bank transaction takes place ( customer to vendor ).
Hmmmm ..... thinking out loud ...... this could also make refunds and returns a nightmare ( if the sale terms include those possibilities ). Probably simpler to have NO refunds and returns, because once some transactions take place ( to third parties like customs ) they can't be undone by the vendor. Yeah it'll have to be caveat emptor ie. let the buyer beware, at own risk etc. So that also has to be understood by the customer ( as a disclaimer ) before sale occurs.
Cheers, Mike.
( edit ) I wonder if a 'click to agree to terms' functionality is included at the online store end of things, before payment is agreed to ?
( edit ) Take India for example :
{ NB. the BCD can be up to 100%, not 20% as in this above example. Plus we have percentages compounding on percentages ie. a tax on a tax on a tax ! }
So for example, FTA ( Free Trade Agreement ) is a major component here and that will or not be applied depending on where the drop-shipper's fulfilment centre is for any given item. In fact for any given order, several fulfilment centres may be involved ( as not all fulfilment centres have the same production functionality ). I forgot to mention that an order can be sent to the customer in several shipments ( at the election of the drop-shipper, as per their internal business rules ).
What a nightmare ! The vendor is not liable and can't be made liable for the accuracy of that ....
Yah, it will have to be done DDU : Delivered Duty Unpaid. For everyone.
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
.... when VAT ( or like )
)
.... when VAT ( or like ) payment may or may not happen depending on total order value ?
Well at least I know where to look on that question. That nexus lies with the quality of the chosen tax software to integrate with the online platform.
Don't worry team : it'll still fly. Others have done it and so can I. If it's a cost of business then so be it, fold it in to the price.
Cheers, Mike.
( edit ) Cripes, I've just looked at Norway again. It's very good that we're not in the tobacco business !
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
How does EBAY handle their
)
How does EBAY handle their shipping?
As an example, I recently ordered and received an EPYC dual CPU and motherboard from a Chinese vendor on EBAY worth more than a $1,000 USD. It had the disclaimer than the 'consignee' would be responsible for paying any 'duties and taxes' on the item(s). Yet when I did receive the item(s), I paid no 'duties and taxes' for the importing country/state/county/city where I live in Rockford, IL, U.S.A.
With the existing tariffs and the like for trade between the U.S. & China, how is that?
Proud member of the Old Farts Association
I haven't much looked at
)
Well done ! It looks like your sale didn't attract either tariff or sales tax - through that vendor.
I haven't much looked at E-Bay beyond reading alot of ( pretty negative ) reviews by vendors. It's a marketplace and so there is much more regulation if you are a member. In particular there is a monthly assignment of seller performance level and there is a minimum. If you are below standards for two consecutive months then significant restrictions are applied. It really suits those who keep inventory and do their own shipping ( thus ought to ship promptly, best case ). So not really for the drop-shipping paradigm, since I can't demand any level of performance from a drop-shipper ( short of walking away ). For me that's just a layer I don't need.
As for USA/PRC I believe the following to be true ( please, someone correct me if I'm wrong ):
China is a MFN ( Most-Favored-Nation, sometimes referred to as NTR for Normal-Trade-Relations ) as of earlier this month, which would generally attract a 0% ( yes, zero ) to low percentage import tariff into the USA from China. That does not seem to have been reversed. However there is/was some congressional legislation afoot to make that conditional ( by executive approval ? ) on a yearly basis ? Mr De Santis had something to say about that a few weeks ago. I think that's due to
Cheers, Mike.
( edit ) We have a bicameral system here DownUnda, where IIRC only* the lower house members can introduce legislation. Your Senate can initiate legislation ? Plus we don't have executive veto etc.
* The Senate's law-making powers are equal to those of the House of Representatives except that it cannot introduce or amend proposed laws that authorise expenditure for the ordinary annual services of the government or that impose taxation. So there !
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
Mike Hewson wrote: Well done
)
You are correct Mike!! Taking the MFN status away from China would cost Americans BILLIONS in taxes as over 90% of our drugs, clothing, electronics etc etc etc come from there right now. YES the US is trying to diversify but as usual politics is getting in the way of a speedy transfer, ie the politicians wrangling over which new plant will be built where and how many people it will hire and at what salary range. There's the usual 'no you can't build that in my area but yes I want that instead' as politicians try to get the highest paid jobs in their area and let everyone else get the lower paying jobs. In short it will take years for the transition to happen and by then China could be a shadow of its current self or a much larger Super Power depending on which News station you are listening to today.
"You are correct Mike!!
)
"You are correct Mike!! Taking the MFN status away from China would cost Americans BILLIONS in taxes as over 90% of our drugs, clothing, electronics etc etc etc come from there right now. YES the US is trying to diversify but as usual politics is getting in the way of a speedy transfer, ie the politicians wrangling over which new plant will be built where and how many people it will hire and at what salary range. There's the usual 'no you can't build that in my area but yes I want that instead' as politicians try to get the highest paid jobs in their area and let everyone else get the lower paying jobs. In short it will take years for the transition to happen and by then China could be a shadow of its current self or a much larger Super Power depending on which News station you are listening to today."
I figured as much. Not that much different to DownUnda then !
In other aspects :
Cheers, Mike.
( edit ) I recall now buying a handmade marble chess set in 2008 during a visit to Vietnam. We were at a producer that sold direct to consumer, right next to the mountain that supplied the marble. Anyway I haggled the price a little and got a great deal ( bypassing Hanoi basically ). When it arrived in Australia ( I was back at home by then ) Customs & Quarantine contacted me with an invoice for duties ( not alot ) and it was picked up by a friend who had a ute and was going by that way. It must have gone under some threshold I reckon and also we didn't have much of a marble carving industry in Australia then ( well, aside from the usual tombstones & monuments ). I know that other marble chess sets could be bought in Australia but they were all imported anyway. Strictly speaking that would have been DAT ( Delivered-At-Terminal ), but I knew that was going to happen. So all was cool.
( edit ) Now almost all online vendors who do offer 'free' shipping have already charged for it in the retail price. But it seems that those vendors value that as per worst case scenario, assuming some obtuse/expensive destinations then, and would thus make a handy profit from the commoner simpler deliveries. So beware that folks ! Would the buyer still proceed if they knew that was going on undisclosed, because that shipping methodology isn't revealed .... no such thing as a free lunch eh ??
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
Greetings Mike! Have you
)
Greetings Mike!
Have you made any progress on selling Einstein@Home T-shirts 'worldwide'?
I know it's been at least a month since you last explained what your up against, and the "worldwide sales-tax/VAT/GST" @ Big-Buck$/month had to be the deal breaker for you.
Have you thought about selling in only Australia & United States?
The tax software may be considerably less, it may also be more of a test market(s) to see if it's worth going worldwide.
I dunno... I'm just sayin'...
Here's to ya...!
Proud member of the Old Farts Association
Hi George. :-)I've been
)
Hi George. :-)
I've been investigating other online sales platforms, and the news is that there are some who do a better job at tax management than Shopify (on their basic scheme), but at a cost. It all comes down to yearly turnover (as expected) and there may not be the demand to cover that aspect. But I'll keep looking ... however it is evident that many small online vendors just don't tick the tax boxes properly; I think likely relying on a low risk of being caught out.
Cheers, Mike
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
Just now seeing this thread.
)
Just now seeing this thread. SCI is happy to handle all the shipping, logistics, etc via our redbubble store and split the proceeds with Einstein* it's just a matter of getting approval from the Einstein admins. If they have a custom design they'd like, we'd certainly welcome it, and/or we can just use their logo of course. And we can put it on t-shirts, mugs, glasses cases, etc.
* or they can just donate all the proceeds to our BOINC bug bounty program. Some projects hosting at unis have a lot of red tape and find it easier to just not accept the money in the first place.