...Why scientific programming does not compute

mikey
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RE: Aside : there's an

Quote:

Aside : there's an interesting case, or class action actually, brewing DownUnda where a local coastal council has deemed GW to be true and thus placed restrictions on development of some ocean side real estate. The effect being to make said land effectively worthless and thus a dead loss for owners - but after they bought it! Sort of a case of 'legislative risk'. The acute liability problem for the relevant councillors who made said by-law, is that they did so without attributable scientific advice. So although 'everybody' says it is global warming, no one actually wants to say that in the witness box. The councillors, who could well be deemed to have acted beyond the usual ( vicarious/corporate ) remit of local office holding - may have to personally cough up the dividends, as none have 'special' qualifications that would save them and they can't produce anyone to back them up in court. So this is where the rubber meets the road ....

Cheers, Mike.

Taxes could be the undoing of all that too, if I owned a piece of that 'ocean side real estate' you can bet my taxes BETTER go down as they have now legislated that I cannot now develop it, making it nearly worthless as an investment. Taxes make 'local coastal councils' able to do their thing, without taxes the local councils are unnecessary and the communities will slowly disband and revert to undeveloped land!

mikey
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RE: rhizobia are bacteria

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rhizobia are bacteria that have a mutualistic relationship with legumes. (ie Clover Beans). If you want to earn a billion dollars find a way to efficiently fix nitrogen in soil. Here we keep chemical fertilizers to a minimum. We have legislated three year crop rotations(usually Hay,(clover) grains and potatoes. Food Production is currently unsustainable. Don't get me started I could rant for days on food production. I think with climate change unsustainable food production, reduction in fresh water, we are in for a wild ride. you think human migration is problem now, just wait.

I think the answer will be that some places will become producers of food and others will produce other things that those places need, causing trade to develop. Oh wait we already do that! The problem with food is that currently tons and tons of the stuff is spoiling due to the lack of being able to get it the people who need it before it spoils. If we can solve that problem then the World's current supply of food can sustain us for a long time. AND the Companies that grow it on an industrial scale can scale up their production levels to points unthought of so far. Flash freezing, faster shipping, etc, etc have all helped but lots of food is still lost to pests, disease and just plain spoilage right now. Earlier one of you guys said 1 to 2 people can be fed per acre in Europe and upto 10 people can be fed per acre in Asia, what if Europe's acreage production could be upped to nearer the 10 people level? And without risk of half of it being lost to spoilage?! Science and Engineering working together can solve the problems, it will just take insight and people taking chances to do it! And maybe even some more G.E. food along the way!

Rod
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RE: RE: rhizobia are

Quote:
Quote:
rhizobia are bacteria that have a mutualistic relationship with legumes. (ie Clover Beans). If you want to earn a billion dollars find a way to efficiently fix nitrogen in soil. Here we keep chemical fertilizers to a minimum. We have legislated three year crop rotations(usually Hay,(clover) grains and potatoes. Food Production is currently unsustainable. Don't get me started I could rant for days on food production. I think with climate change unsustainable food production, reduction in fresh water, we are in for a wild ride. you think human migration is problem now, just wait.

I think the answer will be that some places will become producers of food and others will produce other things that those places need, causing trade to develop. Oh wait we already do that! The problem with food is that currently tons and tons of the stuff is spoiling due to the lack of being able to get it the people who need it before it spoils. If we can solve that problem then the World's current supply of food can sustain us for a long time. AND the Companies that grow it on an industrial scale can scale up their production levels to points unthought of so far. Flash freezing, faster shipping, etc, etc have all helped but lots of food is still lost to pests, disease and just plain spoilage right now. Earlier one of you guys said 1 to 2 people can be fed per acre in Europe and upto 10 people can be fed per acre in Asia, what if Europe's acreage production could be upped to nearer the 10 people level? And without risk of half of it being lost to spoilage?! Science and Engineering working together can solve the problems, it will just take insight and people taking chances to do it! And maybe even some more G.E. food along the way!

PEI is fair size producer of blueberries. I walk into a supermarket here and on the self are 1/2 pt clamshells of blueberries from Argentina. For some reason the logistics work to give me blueberries from South America. Industrial Farming is unsustainable and like mining is exploitation of resource which will be eventually deplete.

There is a book called a 100 mile diet, I going to give it a read.

There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot. - Aldo Leopold

paul milton
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you just reminded me of a

you just reminded me of a quote that was repeated in a book series i read last year. it was sci-fi fantasy. it was a rather intriguing look at what "could" happen had we ever developed nano tech. and the ability to lengthen the average human life span to ~200 years (or more). the quote? "but WHERE will we put every one?"

they where by ben bova.

sorry about the OT

seeing without seeing is something the blind learn to do, and seeing beyond vision can be a gift.

Mike Hewson
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RE: Earlier one of you guys

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Earlier one of you guys said 1 to 2 people can be fed per acre in Europe and upto 10 people can be fed per acre in Asia, what if Europe's acreage production could be upped to nearer the 10 people level? And without risk of half of it being lost to spoilage?!


That was the rough figures as of the late 1800's, where most food was pretty well grown and eaten locally - so excluding spoilage etc. The high figure in Asia is the crop types - rice mainly, with warmth & high rainfall, several crops per acre per year, and just about any source of poo you can lay your hands on - and rather less meat in the diet ( beef especially ). Can you see rice paddies across Germany and France ? :-)

Quote:
Taxes could be the undoing of all that too, if I owned a piece of that 'ocean side real estate' you can bet my taxes BETTER go down as they have now legislated that I cannot now develop it, making it nearly worthless as an investment. Taxes make 'local coastal councils' able to do their thing, without taxes the local councils are unnecessary and the communities will slowly disband and revert to undeveloped land!


There was no legislative or regulative framework for the decision at any level of government, hence the exposure of the councillors - the suit is stating they went way beyond any normal/usual remit for that level of government. My point in mentioning it is to demonstrate how 'green' thinking may no longer simply translate into the moral high ground that some environmental advocates are used to ( with the arrogance that is typically displayed ) and guess what - it's not just "someone else's" money this time, it'll be theirs! My view is that if society is going to do this sort of thing for alleged mutual benefit then it can't be done by bankrupting individuals at whim. Compensate, and properly too ....

( no, I haven't any coastal investments )

Cheers, Mike.

( edit ) The other issue is that for all the 'certainty' over GW, no one has come forward at any level of government/politics to back the councillors - nor any of the usual photo/sound-bite/book-launch opportunists. Afraid of a "Scopes" trial methinks .... heaven forbid they should suffer cross-examination under oath! :-)

( edit ) Sorry, to be exact the council (a) approved and then (b) withdrew the planning application. Whereas b/w (a) and (b) a whole lot of money was spent by developers ...... who would now like recompense. So I guess that's a tad hard to defend in court, thus explaining why no one wants to go near it. Including any councillors who were not associated with decision (b), and are very happy for everyone to know that.

I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter. Blaise Pascal

Rod
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RE: RE: Its usually

Quote:
Quote:

Its usually middle aged white men who have finished reproducing that brings that up.:-)[
Well, mildly obese middle aged .... :-)/quote]

From one middle aged white man to other.. Focusing on Population Control is the wrong direction. Focus on improving standard of living without holding on the goal of population control. Population Control will take care of itself. Like every animal on this planet. Its in our genes

There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot. - Aldo Leopold

mikey
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RE: PEI is fair size

Quote:
PEI is fair size producer of blueberries. I walk into a supermarket here and on the self are 1/2 pt clamshells of blueberries from Argentina. For some reason the logistics work to give me blueberries from South America. Industrial Farming is unsustainable and like mining is exploitation of resource which will be eventually deplete.

So you are saying if you can't grow your own food in your own area, then it won't work? I guess that is why the people in Africa are starving and the people in America have too much food! I saw a commercial last night that said 25% of all fresh food is lost due to spoilage! If that is the case, and since you live in Canada and it can get really, REALLY cold up there, you will either have to learn to preserve your own food or everyone should own guns and go shooting. But what happens to the cities? There is not nearly enough food sources in the average city to sustain its population! Are you trying to say we should go backwards in time to the 18th Century and get rid of cities?! With this being the 21st Century I think there are better solutions that that!!

mikey
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RE: RE: RE: Earlier one

Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
Earlier one of you guys said 1 to 2 people can be fed per acre in Europe and upto 10 people can be fed per acre in Asia, what if Europe's acreage production could be upped to nearer the 10 people level? And without risk of half of it being lost to spoilage?!

That was the rough figures as of the late 1800's, where most food was pretty well grown and eaten locally - so excluding spoilage etc. The high figure in Asia is the crop types - rice mainly, with warmth & high rainfall, several crops per acre per year, and just about any source of poo you can lay your hands on - and rather less meat in the diet ( beef especially ). Can you see rice paddies across Germany and France ? :-)

There are some Doctors that would like that better! But no I cannot see rice paddies springing up everywhere!

Quote:
Taxes could be the undoing of all that too, if I owned a piece of that 'ocean side real estate' you can bet my taxes BETTER go down as they have now legislated that I cannot now develop it, making it nearly worthless as an investment. Taxes make 'local coastal councils' able to do their thing, without taxes the local councils are unnecessary and the communities will slowly disband and revert to undeveloped land!

There was no legislative or regulative framework for the decision at any level of government, hence the exposure of the councillors - the suit is stating they went way beyond any normal/usual remit for that level of government. My point in mentioning it is to demonstrate how 'green' thinking may no longer simply translate into the moral high ground that some environmental advocates are used to ( with the arrogance that is typically displayed ) and guess what - it's not just "someone else's" money this time, it'll be theirs! My view is that if society is going to do this sort of thing for alleged mutual benefit then it can't be done by bankrupting individuals at whim. Compensate, and properly too ....
( no, I haven't any coastal investments )
Cheers, Mike.

I agree with you...for the 'greening' of the planet to occur it must be done with common sense and with regard to everyone involved. It is best if it becomes a win. win situation for all but as long as it is not a lose situation for one side, as in your coastal property example, then I think it could work. ie..if I see that neither one of us wins but neither one of us loses more than the other person it becomes more palatable, I may lose but in relation to you I am not losing ground.

Rod
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RE: RE: PEI is fair size

Quote:
Quote:
PEI is fair size producer of blueberries. I walk into a supermarket here and on the self are 1/2 pt clamshells of blueberries from Argentina. For some reason the logistics work to give me blueberries from South America. Industrial Farming is unsustainable and like mining is exploitation of resource which will be eventually deplete.

So you are saying if you can't grow your own food in your own area, then it won't work? I guess that is why the people in Africa are starving and the people in America have too much food! I saw a commercial last night that said 25% of all fresh food is lost due to spoilage! If that is the case, and since you live in Canada and it can get really, REALLY cold up there, you will either have to learn to preserve your own food or everyone should own guns and go shooting. But what happens to the cities? There is not nearly enough food sources in the average city to sustain its population! Are you trying to say we should go backwards in time to the 18th Century and get rid of cities?! With this being the 21st Century I think there are better solutions that that!!

Not in least. It just that companies Externalize Costs making poorer quality berries more easy to obtain then the better tasting local berries. That why the imported berries are in supermarkets and the local berries are in farmers markets. I am lucky, I can make choices.. Some people can not.

There is a solution for everything

Soylent GreenThere going to be enough raw material for that :-) I am joking..

There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot. - Aldo Leopold

Mike Hewson
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I'm gunna move this thread to

I'm gunna move this thread to the Science Board! :-)

Quote:
Not in least. It just that companies Externalize Costs making poorer quality berries more easy to obtain then the better tasting local berries. That why the imported berries are in supermarkets and the local berries are in farmers markets. I am lucky, I can make choices.. Some people can not.


We too have a local farmer's market ( typically from small holdings ), with a more recently acquired 'organic' label ( though it is hard to pin down exactly what that means ) but in any case does a brisk trade even at the ~ 20% higher price average. Partly that is due to the belief ( or actuality ) that the food is better and tastes better, but also as a deliberate consumer kickback against the larger supermarket chains. In the last 20 or so years they have done two obnoxious things : (a) Wiped out local small businesses in rural/remote areas ( creating an effective monopoly by the tyranny of distance ) via deliberate loss leading ( below cost price buyout of market share ) followed by recouping that 'investment' many fold in later years and (b) providing 'specials' not by taking a profit hit but by deliberate abrogation of price/quantity/conditions on future's contracts with smaller producers ( we're not paying the cartage, take it or leave it, it's rotting as we speak, so sue us .... ). Shades of Lake Wobegon Days .... :-)

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There is a solution for everything

Soylent GreenThere going to be enough raw material for that :-) I am joking..


One of my favorite movies. It even has global warming from carbon burning as a main theme too! The first few minutes of the intro/title/credits - overpopulation, progress, pollution - vividly impressed me when I first viewed it. Also the last of Edward G Robinson, and is a neat 'twin' of Charlton Heston's Omega Man - viral zombies etc - of which I Am Legend was a weak remake of.

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There are some Doctors that would like that better! But no I cannot see rice paddies springing up everywhere!


It's not much politically correct to discuss ( everyone runs if you use the word 'racial' ) but alot of disease precursors in diet are in relation to the genes you inherit. So that is from your ancestors! So 'cholesterol trouble' ( your liver makes it at night ) is largely for those of Anglo-Saxon heritage ( north of the European Alps from Moscow to Dublin ), and lactose intolerance is rife in South East Asia ( the expression of lactase doesn't persist to adulthood ) are two good examples.

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.... It is best if it becomes a win. win situation for all ...


There are currently no shortage of examples where this could be applied DownUnda :

- logging of native forests ( 'Crown' land, water catchments, national parks etc but not privately owned tree farms ). Leave them standing for sure, but not via bankrupting entire communities who invested in the industry ( specifically by payment of large permit fees ) - only to have any return nullified by political decree without recourse. Retrospectively invoked insolvency.

- inland water irrigation. One of our biggest environmental mistakes was probably diverting the Snowy River ( et al ) inland. Also see the Ord River Scheme. The interior of Australia used to be a salt sea. The pen is hovering over legislation which would displace the best part of one million people - several shire's worth - in the Murray Darling basin.

- private land holdings deemed to be 'protected' ( using UN agreements as a pretext no less ) with no comeback or compensation. I saw this in far north Queensland recently where along one section of the road to Daintree rainforest ( of World Heritage listing ) had about 50 little 'for sale' signs displayed in about 10km. I inquired about this and was told of a group of landholders who would like too, but can't, sell their 1 to 5 acre lots as not a single plant can be touched without a permit ( which are never granted, it's a paper fantasy including the ~ $20K to produce an 'environmental impact statement' ). None, or collectively, can summon the $500,000 to raise the required High Court challenge to the federal legislation. They bought at $10K - $15K ( ie thousands ) per acre and can't now give it away. Again retrospectively invoked insolvency.

So if we collectively deem, by the highest court in the land ( parliament ) to do these things, for whatever intent, then we ought not victimise like this. Many are saying, well don't laugh - you may be next. If you want to save a tree, then pay for it. DownUnda the ( political ) green movement has been doing it's own version of cost externalising by obtaining city votes on policies which negatively impact almost exclusively on distant country electorates. However while the Greens ( the named political party ) got an historic lower house seat Federally earlier this year, just last month they got virtually none of the protest swing that caused a change of government in Victoria. They expected to get six lower house seats, and got none what-so-ever. Likely causes are :

- a growing realisation of their 'vote for us, as someone else will take the policy pain' ploy. Nothing really new about that tactic, of course ....

- almost exclusive concentration on social policies quite unrelated to any environmental issue.

- contorted babble when questioned on global warming. That is : why did the temperature go down when you said it would rise ... ( please, no right wing conspiracies are needed here, people are just looking out their windows. Diametric error has never been well rewarded in history. )

- revelation of their 'hidden' policy of closing down at least 25% of generating power from coal fired stations, without alternative provision ( especially nuclear ). It was suggested that voters in electorates where Green candidates were standing might like to consider showing the rest of us the way by accepting random electricity loss for 6 hours of each and every day.

- refusing dam building as a future-water-proofing option ( that includes hydroelectric power ), but support of a coal fired/powered desalination plant in a time of records rains when even the soil foundations at the project site have been washed away by floods.

Seriously there is in fact alot of base support for conservation DownUnda, myself included, but the political side is run by absolute morons. Adult sized infants in fact.

Cheers, Mike.

( edit ) Another is grossly high cholesterol, diabetes and salt-intake related hypertension in our Aboriginal population on 'western' diets. I personally have seen a 28 year old who had a severe stroke ( high blood pressure ), a 32 year old with a heart attack ( cholesterol ), and a 41 year old with renal failure ( diabetes ) all from that racial group.

( edit ) And a big storm hit Sydney this afternoon, it's called Hurricane Oprah .... :-) ;-)

I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter. Blaise Pascal

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